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  • #91
    Son of David, on your next Monarch game, try the following and please let me know the results (note that there are more ways than this to proceed, but I've tested this methodology thoroughly, and I know it works on Monarch...it's not glamerous, but it gets the job done). Using this general outline, you can not only out-produce the AI on Monarch, but out-tech him too. Do NOT build any of the Ancient Age wonders on your first trip through. Focus on the fundamentals. Win the game without building a single Wonder (national wonders are cool...go for it!), and then, once you have a victory under your belt, go back and add a wonder or two that would enhance the strategy and your playing style (all of them could apply, so pick 1-2 for your NEXT game and experiment with those).

    * Choose your favorite Civ...whichever one you feel suits your playstyle "best."

    Priority 1: Production Options

    * Make straight for Bronzeworking (build a worker first). Bronzeworking is one of the strongest techs of the age, and its discovery brings with it the Slavery civic (switch to this the same turn you get the tech), and the ability to chop trees.

    Once you have this tech, in order to make best use of its powers, you're going to want "The Wheel" and "Pottery" (for Grainaries, which magnify the power of pop-rushing). Your goal is to speed-build infrastructure in your starting city(ies). At this point, you've got options. If you want a second city quickly, you can "chop" it to completion. If you want to grow a bit first, then do some mining, selective chopping (a barracks would be good while you're waiting for Pottery and the Grainary), or otherwise find stuff for your worker to do.

    The power of BronzeWorking only works for you if you USE slave rushing and/or chop, so use them. If you're squemish about sacrificing some of your population, just chalk it up to the price of victory and do it. Trust me...you'll be shocked at how amazingly effective it is, and you'll soon be a pop and chop junkie.

    Now that you have production options, and are going toward Pottery, you're worker is gonna have plenty to do. I recommend a general rule of 1 worker per city you plan to build.

    Bronzeworking ALONE will give you the tools you need to thrive in the ancient age, and your next several steps are probably already springing to mind.

    If you have no copper in your starting city radius, but there's some nearby, then make that the site of your next city. If not, then you want Animal Husbandary after you grab Pottery. Why? Information. Horses or no? That's the question. You NEED an ancient era butt-kicker, and it's either gonna come equipped with an Axe, a Horse, or a Sword. If you have none of these, then you need to get to the next era's units (longbowmen are good, and close at hand) to "get your shields up" so you don't look like a pansy to the AI...but I'm getting ahead of myself.

    To reiterate, research these:
    1) Bronzeworking (pre-reqs as needed)
    2) Pottery (pre-reqs as needed)

    Chop a Grainary to completion and you're doubly dangerous (cos now you have chop AND a fast growing population to sacrifice).

    Next stop...Libraries. Pop and Chop it to completion and assign two scientists in your capitol to get a quick academy. Faster research, and all that (and de-assign your specialists once you get the Great Scientist).

    If you've been expanding during this phase, you might have 3-4 cities, so now you're gonna want to do this: In every city you have currently, and in every city you build in the future, you want your first pop point to work the biggest food production tile that city has available. Your second pop point works the biggest hammer production tile it can. Your third and fourth pop points maximize coins (cottages, specials that give money...something). Do whatever you want with the other pop points in each city, though as a general rule, you might just want to replicate that pattern through (ie, fifth pop point works another food heavy tile, sixth works more hammers, etc). Obviously there will be some wrinkles and caveats due to terrain particulars. Roll with it, and try to abide by the spirit, if not the letter of the recommendation. Do that and you will be able to: a) afford continual expansion, b) afford an army that's on par with the AI, and c) keep pace with, or exceed the AI's research efforts.

    DO NOT build another city until one of your existing cities has already built proper garrisons FOR the city. Remember that the AI only looks at your troop totals when deciding if you are an easy target. It don't know if the bulk of your troops are garrisons or not, so build strong garrisons (two per city...Axe/Spear or Axe/Archer, and 3 (Axe/Archer/Spear) on any city on the border. Sure, you can get by doing a lighter garrison approach, and you don't HAVE TO pre-build a new city's garrisons, but if you're having trouble winning, those tips will help your game.

    Make every city profitable. This will mean cottages (at least a few) in every city. It will mean that courthouses will be needed sooner, rather than later.

    Don't build any infrastructure you don't need. Let ~1:3 cities build a barracks....the rest can wing it without. Having said that, if a city is producing at least 4 beakers of science, IT WILL benefit from a library (25% boost). So consider it anyplace it will make a profit for you. Likewise the money enhancers. If your goal is to generate a surplus, then these incremental additions to your coin purse and/or research WILL add up. And don't just let them build slowly...that's why you're chopping and sacrificing population! Pop and Chop your way to Empire, until you have a big collection of well developed cities, and then wean yourself away from the pop rushing (when a more attractive civic comes along).

    At this point, you've done nothing but focus on the fundamentals, and you WILL BE strong. You'll also be highly cultured, as all those libraries will be spewing out culture and spreading your influence.

    The AI will come at you anyway, of course, so pick your battles. Resign yourself to the fact that you will not be able to stay friendly with all of them, so pick a couple to befriend, and follow their leads. Get ready when the ones you snub press the issue, and WHEN they fight, pick your battles carefully. Make sure the terrain favors you. Set up a pillage zone to keep enemy troops occupied if they invade. Send your own pillagers (cheap, out of date troops, mostly) into their lands and slash and burn everything in sight. If you feel strong enough, take one city and (if it's close to your spehere of influence), keep it and sue for peace. If you feel weak, burn it down and sue for peace.

    Be a tech whore. Go deep in the tech tree after you nail down the fundamentals, and sell your new treasure to any and everyone who will talk to you, not only to improve relations, but to get every scrap of tech your rivals have.

    One you catch up (and you will...in fact, you'll pass them, and be 1-3 or more techs ahead), THAT is when you start being stingy with the techs.

    Stay on the AI's good side. If they make a demand you don't want to cave into, then negotiate, and give them a 10g gift. They go away happy and (usually) they STAY gone (meaning, they are far less likely to attack you).

    If a neighboring AI gets attacked, dog pile him! Join the war against him and opportunistically take over a city or two. If you don't want to compete with culture, then burn it down, but have a settler or two at the ready to expand into the newly available land.

    Keep your "friends" dirt poor, by selling off all your spare resources for gold per turn. Helps your bottom line, hinders theirs.

    Try that, and tell me if it doesn't get you across the finish line.

    If it does, then start experimenting, using this as a base to work from, changing and adding stuff as it suits you.

    -=Vel=-
    The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Velociryx
      Make every city profitable. This will mean cottages (at least a few) in every city. It will mean that courthouses will be needed sooner, rather than later.
      Vel, I just read through your thread so far (took a while too), and this is one idea that keeps popping up, and in general I don't agree to it in the slightest (not the CHs, of course, but spreading your cottages to all cities).

      I mean, I appreciate what you're trying to do: commerce is way more important in this game, and any strategy overview needs to stress that. So far, you didn't mention harbors a lot (or not explicitely), but they are implied... even if I think these need to be present in any city, and not cottages. But that might be personal taste...

      As for the cottages: I couldn't agree more that you need these early, and you need lots of them. However, aside from my capital (which gets extra bonusses from e.g. bureaucracy and all possible buildings in there), I don't spread out cottages at all. These only get build in commerce cities... but in there, they are built to the extreme.

      The thing at work here, is that while balance is needed in any empire, unbalancing one aspect will push you forward to gain the so needed turn advantage. It's more efficient to specialize cities, there is no way around that CIV mechanic. Commerce cities, production cities and food cities need to be separated as much as possible... this way, commerce cities can focus on slowly building up their commerce-modifier buildings (and health/growth stuff too, all cities need that). Production cities focus on wonders/ units. Food cities focus on GP.

      Spreading stuff out will mean that you will get less modifiers: not all your hammers are being used in a city which has a forge. Not all your commerce is being used in a city which has a lib. Etc. Or, you can get to the modifiers from e.g. libs, but at the expense of units.

      If I would need to give one advice for how to conquer Monarch level, it's this: Learn the way of specialization. An Empire approach as you described only needs 1 or 2 barracks cities. If these never build libs (or used cottages), they will give you all the units you need.

      But pure barracks cities are a drain on your empire unless you balance them again with a good science, and a good commerce city... so you need to find the balance in unbalancing things

      DeepO

      Comment


      • #93
        Heh, every time a new civ game comes out and I move up in difficulty level, the first thing I have to do is to put down the wonders and back slowly away. Then I can focus on winning w/o them, and then get good enough to have them at higher diffs and still do other things well.

        So here I am, wrecking Prince level and building wonders like a madman... knowing with a certain amount of dread that when I move up to Monarch I will have to give some of them up...

        Last game: Inca. Intended to fight. It's now the 1700s and I haven't fired a shot. Oracle CS slingshot + Pyramids. And Colossus. And G.Library. ... and on and on. I love Wonders. Always have.

        I'll get over it, but it will hurt, as usual. Same thing happened a few years back with CivIII...

        -Arrian
        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Xarathas
          oh and speaking of bad starts.. it doesn't get much worse than this.
          That's a fine start. This is a bad one:


          Edit: I guess I can't link to this directly. Drat.

          That's on a HUGE Pangea map.
          Last edited by Drachasor; December 8, 2005, 19:18.
          "If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack Obama

          Comment


          • #95
            I find my "target wonder" list shrink as I go up in level too

            In Noble it was pretty much every wonder.

            then Prince I got rid of the useless wonders (for my standard spaceship type games)..

            then Monarch that list shrunk to Oracle, Pyramids, Great library, Notre Dame, Statue of Liberty.. (basically happiness & tech related)

            then now on Emperor, I'm basically aiming for just tech related stuff. Pyramids, GL, Statue...

            I have a feeling that by the time Immortal or Deity come around, I won't have a target wonder list anymore. It'll be just whatever I can get

            Comment


            • #96
              Woah, that's a really bizzare start!! One hopes that's really rare...

              Meanwhile, Mansa Musa gets Stone, Copper, Iron and Cows all within his starting city radius!! Holy crap.

              -Arrian
              grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

              The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Heroes


                I don't think building cottages at low food tiles is good, because it slows your growth too much. Since a specialist's production is equivalent to 6 gold (with representation), I would suggest 1 hammer = 1.5 gold, 1 food = 3 gold.
                I don't follow you at all. What do you mean with "a specialist's production is equivalent to 6 gold"?

                In CIV, it's about 1 gold = 1 hammer = 1 food.

                How you could calculate that? Well, the highest gains you will get from resources on your map is roughly 8 with certain techs. This is the same for food, production, and commerce. It's actually easier to get high-production tiles than it is to get high-commerce tiles (as cottages need to grow), which explains why there is a bit more commerce possible. Later on in the game, commerce is being stressed a bit more (e.g. watermills! Yoohoo!), but this only because you need more of it.

                Also, commerce is split into beakers and gold. I'd say that 1 beaker is actually worth more than 1 hammer or 1 food.

                Rushing gives the same results, BTW. 1 pop is about 30 food. and gives you 30 hammers. The cost of goldrushing is higher, but you can't compare gold to hammers at 1 to 1 ratio anymore when you normally get to Uni. Suffr. You'll have banks in all your gold cities, shrines, spiral minaret maybe, and trade routes everywhere.
                BTW, shields transform to gold by a 1 to 1 ratio too, when you lose a wonder. (or at least that's what I thought the formula was, but I could be sorely mistaken).

                Specialists are a very bad way of comparing ratios. One extra food is use when it comes from a GM. But there is no superspecialist that give raw commerce... they all give gold or beakers. They won't ever generate that much hammers, but this is simply unbalancing: you can't have a GM giving 2 fpt, as that would mean that you can get a geometrical line going: set up a city which will produce a GM every 20 turns, and by simply adding 1 extra GM once it completes, you will be able to add another merchant... meaning the next GM is again only ~20 turns away. Hammers similar: the choice was made to spread this out over different superspecialists, to counter possible abuses. This has nothing to do with one type being worth less than the other.

                The reason why I might seem to be overreacting to such a small comment, is that it shows very well that you're not valueing commerce enough yet. For instance, on a river start, working a grassland (2f, 1c) from the start will beat almost any grass forest start (2f, 1h) when it comes to teching, reaching stuff, even building wonders. This little 1 extra commerce per turn is actually 11% more research... enough to beat AIs to religions. It will only be a 1 turns difference, but do you need more?

                Vel only decribes a workboat start as a very high commerce (and growth) start, but there are a couple of lesser but still very valid starts. Grass near river, for instance. Lakes! Camp or plantation resources (near rivers), especially if these are in forests. FIN leaders can get by with early cottages on fp or on river grass too.

                In so many games, reaching ahead in tech in a relatively safe manner will be better than focussing on a particular wonder (e.g. Pyramids). And otherwise, gold is most likely what is going to hamper you in any early expansion, either by conquest or peacefully. It doesn't matter you've got the power to build loads of units, if these are disbanding as you can't pay their wages.

                DeepO

                Comment


                • #98
                  How many nations were there? I don't think I've ever played a large/huge map where they started me 4 tiles from an enemy.

                  Haha.. I think that would've been a doable start as long as the person that closed you off wasn't Mansa Musa. Maybe you can still whip yourself enough culture to get that Copper and whip a bunch of axemen to kill him :P of course you'd be so far behind the other enemies by then...

                  Perhaps a quick boat/settler would be better, then you can concentrate on taking Mansa out.

                  it's not hopeless I don't think, however. Unless Mansa just sits there and build a bunch skirmishers as he takes the land nearby before you

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    I agree with DeepO about specializing cities, but only to a degree. I mean you probably want to put in a grocer/market in any city that wants to grow large anyways and you might want the culture from the university/monasteries so on. After all is said and done even your "specialized cities" end up having decent bonuses to gold and test tubes in every city so filling 2-3 squares with cottages in a production city isn't that bad. But yeah city specialization is mainly good, placing your cities so it will be a production powerhouse is half of the battle, other half is improving and building the right buildings.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by xxFlukexx
                      I agree with DeepO about specializing cities, but only to a degree. I mean you probably want to put in a grocer/market in any city that wants to grow large anyways and you might want the culture from the university/monasteries so on. After all is said and done even your "specialized cities" end up having decent bonuses to gold and test tubes in every city so filling 2-3 squares with cottages in a production city isn't that bad. But yeah city specialization is mainly good, placing your cities so it will be a production powerhouse is half of the battle, other half is improving and building the right buildings.
                      It's true, very few things can be really taken to the extreme in CIV. As I said, you need to balance your inbalances too

                      Pure GP cities don't work, for instance, you need to have some production going. However, pure fp cities do work: while you're waiting for biology, you can go for more production (not commerce!). Once you get biology, swithc as much as you feel comfortable with to food/specialists , and get hammers from superspecialists.

                      BTW, building unis when you need the culture: sure... but border cities are specialized to culture cities. Simpyl another type Note that these tend to be recognized by the AI as well, meaning that both other civs as your own build governor will suggest unis in border towns, even with very few commerce available.

                      DeepO

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DeepO

                        I don't follow you at all. What do you mean with "a specialist's production is equivalent to 6 gold"?

                        In CIV, it's about 1 gold = 1 hammer = 1 food.
                        No way. Actually, Heroes' 3/1.5/1 approximation is excellent. As a Financial leader, when deciding how to improve my land, I actually use the more extreme valuation 4/2/1 (with the condition that when my city is fully developed, I don't have any food surplus; any food beyond what's necessary obviously isn't worth 4 commerce).

                        But I still spam cottages, because I only take their long-term value into account in this calculation.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Dog of Justice
                          But I still spam cottages, because I only take their long-term value into account in this calculation.
                          Well, I'm thinking more on the early game, that's true. The main reason why gold 'devaluates' more than hammers or food is because of growth. Trade routes are the main culprits here: have loads of productive trade routes, and your situation might become more towards 2 g = 1 h = 1 f

                          But especially early on, commerce is much more important. Your palace provides you with 8 already, but in many games that's also the end of your 'free' commerce. If you work one hammer, you might want to consider that you are chossing not work one commerce, and how that will impact your game.

                          Hammers are obvious. Food is obvious. Commerce is not, and it's importance early on can't be stressed enough.

                          DeepO

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Arrian
                            Woah, that's a really bizzare start!! One hopes that's really rare...

                            Meanwhile, Mansa Musa gets Stone, Copper, Iron and Cows all within his starting city radius!! Holy crap.

                            -Arrian
                            Yeah, I had to share that copper square with him. I find the fact that we had overlapping city radii in our starting cities crazy.

                            Of course the fact that Mansa has those nasty skirmishers meant it was a long time before I could take that city (and I couldn't expand because of Mansa's city radius.

                            Oh, I did get two forests, but I took them down quickly.

                            When I made my first city, I saw Mansa there (due to the view from the hill), and I could hardly believe it. I decided on straight researching to bronze-working. Sadly I wasn't able to maintain good terms with people (Mansa was fairly well liked), so after I took 2 of Mansa's cities a huge force came in and was surely going to take me out (and I was producing units as fast as I could). Oh well.

                            Right now I've been working on my early game strategy. Chopping does seem effective, but I find my researching slowing significantly whenever I use it. I am working on fixing that (it's probably because I chop instead of making enough cottages).

                            -Drachasor
                            "If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack Obama

                            Comment


                            • Something I've only recently found out is how critical it is to found new cities, at least early on, in areas where they will have either a food resource, or room for a few farms on grassland. Otherwise the cities grow way too slowly to keep up with the AI. You can get away with one city without a good food source, but if you have two or more than it will really hurt.

                              It wasn't that critical before my Monarch games, but now the difference is painfully obvious.
                              "If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack Obama

                              Comment


                              • Hmmm...some excellent thoughts and thinking here.

                                DeepO speaks the truth about the power of specialization, but IMO, by specializing out to a very large degree, you wilfully "miss out" on a large part of the productive capacity of the land you're on.

                                It's true, the city is THE hallmark unit of measure and capacity in the game. The city drives everything....but the city will only get as far as the land that surrounds it (if you don't believe that, build a city on an ice shelf with no specials in sight and see how big it gets...not very). And the land around a city may or may not be well suited to specialization. If it is, then GREAT! Specialize away. But often (frequently, in my experience), the best city sites (the ones you would naturally gravitate to), are pretty well balanced. That being said, if you go against the grain of the land and specialize the city anyway, then you are throwing away a large chunk of the productivity of the terrain. IMO, while specialization is good....it ain't good enough to warrant all that.

                                My feelings are thus: Specialize when and where you can, but few things can top the sheer versatility of a good, balanced city. Run a small empire (say, 5-8 cities), and the worst happens and you lose your "commerce city" and YOU ARE TOAST.

                                Lose one of however many balanced cities and you shake it off and go bust some chops.

                                -=Vel=-

                                PS: Further...ALL cities are gonna generate some commerce. All of them.

                                I've never SEEN a city that didn't have at least some.

                                Markets provide a 25% boost to g in a given city. That means a city that's making 4gpt will make 5 after the market goes into place.

                                NOT building markets in any city where they would be profitable simply makes no sense to my brain. That's as good as leaving money on the table. Now granted, there's a priority system in place....a city making 50gpt is gonna see more benefit to a market than the city making 8gpt, but that don't matter, because the two are not mutually exclusive....just because city A is building a market does not somehow mean that city B cannot....so again....to simply choose NOT to build such an improvement in a place where it is profitable to do so baffling to me, specialized or no. Additionally...cities can ONLY work 21 tiles. That's it. Less, absolutely, but never more.

                                But what if, in your financial calculations, you arrive at the conclusion that you need at least 26 fully developed cottages?

                                You just gonna dump 21 of them into your specialized commerce city and forget the others, or are you gonna build a few elsewhere, let them help bump up the profit margins of some of your other cities?

                                Building cottages, WHEREVER you build them (all in one place or spread out), certainly won't HURT your game....it's just a question of how you want to structure your empire.

                                I treat the empire as a business, and each city as a separate business unit.

                                I like ensuring that all my business units have at least SOME profitibility, tho it is understood that some will have higher profits than others...

                                -v.
                                Last edited by Velociryx; December 9, 2005, 06:22.
                                The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

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