Vel's Strategy Thread, Volume II

[Xarathas]

I've played with the slingshot on Emperor a few times, and it seems that it's pretty much a crapshot barring a few things -
1) you get some of the techs en route from huts.

2) starting city have good commerce tiles (lakes for a fishing race, gold, silver, cottaged river for fin races, etc.).

it tend to depend on the opponents you face too... if you have a lot of opponents that start with mysticism, it's pretty hard to delay oracle until you finish CoL AND get it. Isabella and Gandhi (usually him) have a bad habit of jacking it from me

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Aeson
Higher difficulties may require dropping the Library or eliminate the slingshot as a possibility. The only reason I tried it in AU100-A on Deity was because of Animal Husbandry and Mysticism from huts, noticing the AI definitely weren't full fledged Deity AI, along with the great terrain. The FP for the Capitol and the Oracle site with Cattle and Horses. Generally on Deity it isn't going to work.

On floodplains starts with too few hammers for both library and oracle, cottages can get to CoL instead of the library, as I think you did in the AU game, but the Academy is valuable part of the package, and Bureaucracy is not quite the same without it.

It can get messy with the GP generation too if there's no Academy. With the Oracle in the capital, you can't be sure of getting a Gt Sci there, which means either ride your luck or build one elsewhere, which isn't ideal. Academy GP first, Shrine GP second, with a library in the +9c capital seems the optimal setup. Having enough happies for a decent size capital might be a consideration too.

There are a lot of other ways to approach the game that are competitive with Oracle->CS in the long run. I only brought it up in the first place as a potential competitor to the "chop" type early expansions. It may be getting too much focus now.

Maybe, but otherwise all the talk would be about locusts. When the AI starts reading this forum, it won't need any modifiers.

[Arrian]

I have to admit, I've really fallen into a pattern of using the CS slingshot over and over... every game, actually.

I'll have to break myself of that...

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Arrian
I have to admit, I've really fallen into a pattern of using the CS slingshot over and over... every game, actually.

I'll have to break myself of that...

-Arrian

Me too, I want to try out 'Farseer' and some of Vel's warmongering openings.

However, it's gonna be even harder to put down now Wild Pig UK has claimed that you can stop the AI tech trading by using an early tech lead to 'buy' AI-AI conflict. By getting all other civs at war, it'll screw up their trading relationships and stop the AI vs human tech dogpile at Monarch.

I started using it part-way through my current game, albeit belatedly, but it seems to work. Osaka is off on his own peaceful cottage-fuelled tech lead, but the rest of them are 3-4 techs behind me as I hit the Industrial Era and as long as they're scrapping, they're not catching up - so far. I might lose to India unless I attack Osaka myself, as I have no techs to lever him into another war.

No matter - the principle seems to work, and while Wild Pig UK used another method of getting a tech lead, the trick of instigating war between the AI seems an ideal use for the CS Beeline's tech lead.

So many strategies, so little time ....

[Arrian]

I've gotta do a better job of picking my diplomatic friends in CIV. My current game seems to me a good example of my difficulties:

My continent: Me (Roosevelt), Egypt (to my north), India (Ghandi, to my south), Kublai Khan (far southeast, past Ghandi). I took out Egypt with chariots. They were too close, so they had to go. They were boxed into a penninsula anyway, so it was probably just a matter of who struck first.

Khan founded Buddism and Ghandi founded Hinduism. Doh. I did the slingshot, netting me Confucism. I had a missionary in Khan's land, scouting before setting on a city to try to convert when he closed his borders to me. Doh. I converted nearly all of India and, briefly, got Ghandi to convert. That was rather short-lived, however. Khan demanded repeatedly that I stop trading with India. I refused over and over. Relations dropped more and more. He didn't attack me, however, because I made sure I had a respectable military (and, I have recently noticed that he appears to lack horses).

Then I got to Optics and met the rest of the world. As soon as contact was made all around, everyone else (Montezuma, Peter and Louis) decided that Ghandi was their "worst enemy." I, of course, was trading with Ghandi. -2 to -4 from EVERYONE for that. I'm friends with an international pariah. Repeated demands started flowing in to cancel my deals with the perfidious Indians - my only friend. No, says I! More -'s to diplomacy. Monty is actually "furious" with me, the others were annoyed.

Recently, I got Peter to loosen up enough to open borders with me. He's still cautious, and about -1 or -2... so I'm teetering on the brink of losing that again. This is with me running free religion, mind you. It was worse before.

What this has meant, of course, is that until Russia opened their borders, Astronomy really HURT my empire. I had the Colossus, you see. Getting Astro obseletes the Colossus, but usually you make that up via new overseas trade routes for your cities (all mine had harbors, and I switched to free trade). But alas, for a substantial period of time, I had precisely one civ that would actually trade with me: India. I expect Russia to cancel our open borders at any time.

Then Khan attacked India. I figured "in for a penny, in for a pound" and moved a goodly chunk of my military into India and declared war on Khan to assist Ghandi (yay, +1 our shared military struggle. +1 you jerk?!?! I saved your ass!). I've got a tech lead (slim), so I'm in good shape, but the diplomacy has been irritating...

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Arrian

Then I got to Optics and met the rest of the world. As soon as contact was made all around, everyone else (Montezuma, Peter and Louis) decided that Ghandi was their "worst enemy." I, of course, was trading with Ghandi. -2 to -4 from EVERYONE for that. I'm friends with an international pariah.

-Arrian

I'd love to know why this happens. AI's seem to love or hate each other at first sight without any explaination given. It's hard to plunge your cities into resource-deficit and give up flogging religion to the neighbour just because said neighbour is a pariah. It'd be nice to at least know why.

I suppose the only a possibility is to see which way the wind is blowing then ween off the neighbour and join the 'international community' in bullying your former friend.

I use to fear making early contact in Civ 3 Emperor games because they'd immediately start hassling me, but the alternative was to miss out on tech trading. Intercontinental travel has a similar effect in Civ 4.

btw - Crusader Girl can be a good pal if you support her call to arms. She even let me run my own religion!

[Arrian]

Hmm, I'll check that out next time Isabella asks me to help her (typically she just hates me, though ).

Given the difficulty level (Prince) and my current situation, the diplomacy is actually kind of a neat challenge. It's a bit irritating that everyone hates Ghandi for no good reason, sure, but on the other hand it's set up to be me & him vs. the world. He's running 3rd in score (he may drop to 4th b/c of Khan's invasion/pillaging) and I'm 1st. 1+3 vs. 2+4+5+6. I can handle that. Especially if I can keep Peter happy enough to keep trading with me. Hmm, maybe I should give Ghandi Liberalism and see if I can get him to switch to free religion. That might help his relations with other civs... I wonder if you can change the "worse enemy" thing. If he suddenly no longer has -4's with everyone because of religion, perhaps the civs on the other continent will re-allocate their "worse enemy" thing. Of course, in Monty's case that's gonna be me But perhaps the others will turn on each other...

-Arrian

[Arrian]

I'm clearly still getting a feel for CivIV. Not only have the scores changed up quite a bit (Ghandi is now a solid #2 to me, and Kublai has fallen to 5th - second to last), but diplomatic developments have surprised me a bit:

Shortly after I started playing again, I made peace with Kublai - Ghandi had done so, and all I could do at that point was some pillaging (which I did) because I had no artillery units. I made certain I researched artillery. Meanwhile, I got sneak attacked by Monty, who took an island city of mine. I took it back and also convinced Peter to enter the war on my side. This turned Peter into a good friend. Plus, he actually took a city and stuck with the war for a while... although more on that later.

So I had a mostly faux war going with Monty (I took back my island city and captured one of his) while I was building some key things:

factories
ironworks (I actually rushed it with an engineer)
west point
pentagon
wall street

Meanwhile, I researched artillery and industrialization. Then I geared for real war. I had no coal, you see, but Kublai did. I made peace w/Monty when I could. Peter kept on fighting. Then, having built up a large force (including some City Raider III Tanks and Arty from my WP city), I attacked the Mongols. I actually used my Navy Seals they way they're meant to be used! Things proceeded predictably given that I had Tanks/Inf/NS/Arty against Rifles. But enough about that - back to the diplomacy.

Upon re-engaging the Mongols, I dialed up Ghandi to ask him to help out. He was pleased with me, and I'd saved his bacon before. Yet the option is redded out, with the explanation being "we just don't like you enough." I see. When I'm done with Kublai, my army might just decide to pay my scrawny friend a visit. Even after I'd captured three Mongol cities (including Karakorum), he had no interest in helping (not that I need it - the Mongols are broken).

Meanwhile, Peter called me up and asked me to help against the Aztecs, with whom he was still at war. They're running dead last and they messed w/me before, so I agreed to make Peter happier with me. Upon closing that window, I get a call from Louis, who asks me to join him against Peter. :crazy: Umm, no thanks bud. He declares on Peter, who immediately makes peace with Monty. Thanks, there, pal! The AI *really* doesn't like fighting more than 1 opponent at a time. It makes sense, I know. It is irritating, nonetheless, given that Peter had called me into the war that very turn. If this had been a war that would actually affect me in some way, I'd be pissed.

As it stands, Monty is little more than an annoying fly. All of a sudden I've exploded into a large lead. And I'm just starting my railroads. I'm sure the wars overseas have helped me. The war with Kublai certainly has. In the near future, I'll plunk down my forbidden palace in Karakorum, at which point I'll really be cookin' with oil.

Summary: Diplomacy can change rather dramatically ( ) depending on the situation, and I really like the organized trait.

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

I think Ghandi is difficult to get into wars - even if he's not shy of asking for help himself.

If the AI starts drafting and / or poprushing units, that'll lower their scores, and if they trade less techs that'll affect it too.

In Civ 3 you could often / usually wait and let the AI's beat each other up. In Civ 4 they don't seem to do that so much without being encouraged. Mind you, killer AI's aren't really a Civ 4 thing either.

btw, has anyone seen any of the following on an AI-AI attitude report:?

-1 You refused us help / tribute
-1 You refused to help us in wartime
-1 You refused to stop trading with our worst enemy

They do get 'You have traded with our worst enemy", but I haven't seen the request/demand penalties. It should be said, though, that agreeing to demands can sometimes be a fast way to make friends. Not with Monty though. I hate it when he's around - so tediously predictable.

[Arrian]

Part of it, I think, was that he didn't ask me for help. I recognized the possibility that he could get steamrolled quickly by Khan, and just jumped in before he could come begging for help. Kublai rolled up to an India city with a really solid invasion stack (4 catapults and a bundle of combat units). I thought it would fall, so I declared and hit the stack.

I haven't paid much attention to the AI vs. AI modifiers...

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Someone asked many pages ago if I would admit when I really screwed up....well, last night was one such occassion.

Monarch, standard map size, Ice Age, raging barbs, epic, as Mansa Musa

Poor food terrain (mostly plains), but some good "campable" animals, which prompted me to go worker first, and Hunting (to make the most of what food there was).

Once I had hunting in-hand, I figured I'd head toward Archery next (given the raging barbs and all), so as to put my UU into play right then and there.

Once the worker completed, I started on a barracks. Warrior was heading for home after a bout of exploring, cos I knew the barbs would start calling soon.

Bear ate warrior en route home, and Vel didn't move off from the barracks build (it was only 10 more turns away....not bad on epic). No bronzeworking yet, so no pop rushing or chop.

Barbs showed up 2 turns before the barracks completed, and I immediately switched to a warrior, hoping to get him trained in time, but to no avail.

Lost my only city in 2k bc, with a score of....zero.



-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

Doh! I usually don't put up a barracks until I've got a couple of units out pushing back the FoW... and that's playing on normal barbs. I've gotten a nasty surprise or two myself, and I've learned my lesson.

Best-case is nearby horses for chariots - they're great for early barb control and pushing back the FoW. 2 moves (4 on roads, of course) really helps early on. They make perfect settler escorts. Obviously, no horses, no chariots. Archery is the safer play.

-Arrian

[khearn]

Originally posted by Cort Haus

btw, has anyone seen any of the following on an AI-AI attitude report:?

-1 You refused us help / tribute
-1 You refused to help us in wartime
-1 You refused to stop trading with our worst enemy

They do get 'You have traded with our worst enemy", but I haven't seen the request/demand penalties. It should be said, though, that agreeing to demands can sometimes be a fast way to make friends. Not with Monty though. I hate it when he's around - so tediously predictable.

Nope, I've never seen those sorts of mods between AIs, and I do check how they feel about each other fairly often. It would appear that the AIs don't make demands/requests from each other, or at least their relationships aren't effected by them. I've also never seen a "+1 You gave us help" mod between them.

This is an area where there is definitely not a level playing field between AIs and humans. Whenever an AI shows up to make a demand/request, it's always a bad thing for the human. Either you have to give something to the AI, which is not good, or you take a relationship hit. It's a lose/lose proposition that the AI don't seem to ever have to face.

What I really hate is when your so-called friend, who is ahead in techs and won't even consider trading any of their techs, calls you up and says they need your help and would you please give them the only tech you have that they don't. He's desperately in need of help and will hold a grudge for centuries if I don't give him the tech, but he's not willing to trade any of his stuff for it. Feh! I wouldn't mind in cases like this is they'd just say "Oh well, I was just asking" and then didn't hold a grudge about it.

[Arrian]

Ghandi calls me up and wants Assembly Line (a tech only I have). I turn him down and get -1. Meanwhile, for ****s & giggles, I ask him for Divine Right (a tech that all 5 AIs have). The Spiral Minaret & Versailles have been built already. He says I push him too hard.

Edit: to be clear, I have in the past gotten tech from friendly/pleased AIs. It's not ALL one-way.

Sometimes you get lucky and the AI's demand/request is palatable. But most of the time I just cannot stomach giving what they want (typically shiny new tech or cancellation of all deals with some other AI - which in turn will result in a civ that hates me and won't talk to me). Bah.

-Arrian

[Jaybe]

But most of the time I just cannot stomach giving what they want (typically ... cancellation of all deals with some other AI - which in turn will result in a civ that hates me and won't talk to me). Bah

I want a "Review Agreements" option so I can see what deals I have with the civ. I would especially hate to cancel agreements and unexpectedly find I suddenly have strategic, health, or happiness resource problems.

It could happen with me, because (1) my mind isn't that sharp, and (2) I'm playing large/huge epics with 10-18 civs.