Vel's Strategy Thread, Volume II

[Velociryx]

Only thing I've found to be effective above Monarch is warfare. Stick with 2, maybe three closely packed cities, build all the boring stuff (units), and attack your weakest neighbor. Take MAYBE one city and sue for peace. Nibble them to death.

Not exciting, not fun, but it's workable....

The thing that's a drag there is....since civ isn't really a wargame, and combat is prolly the LEAST compelling aspect of the game, I don't enjoy the extremely high levels (they force more focus on that which I like the least about the game *yawn* )

-=Vel=-

[gentle]

"I must dissent"

I have done succesful builder starts and buildups on deity (remembering me from the first thread where I repeatedly hijacked the discussion with posts how I am doing in my 1AD games ? ^^)

Though Deity is not a difficulty for the "have everything" guys, I think it is possible to not only wage war there.
Nevertheless I currently play Noble again just to have fun and "have everything" ^^.

P.S: its damn early *yawn*

[Ithkul2]

Originally posted by Velociryx


I think you've certainly picked a good civ for warmongering! The Mongols come equipped with a splendid ancient era uu, well suited for the style of play you're using them with.

Probably the only thing that would improve your situation that I did not see mentioned would be a beeline for Code of Laws....if it were me, after getting to the point where I was making Keshiks, but before I actually took my first enemy city, I'd make straight for Code of Laws, and then make my next tech target Construction (catapults, which will further extend the lifespan of my Keshiks). In this way, you'll be able to chop courthouses where you need them most (far-flung conquered cities), and then pop-n-chop cultural infrastructure quickly to re-expand the city borders.

Overall tho, I think you're right on target!

-=Vel=-

Thanks for your pointers. Late Code of laws was my biggest mistake. I had trouble getting gold for units and city upkeep. After taking my last city i was going in 0% research and still losing gold.

So I bullyed some gold, traded tech for gold. Got Great Lighthouse. Got things floating again. The funny thing was that when Great Lighthouse was finished The two biggest civ's decleared war. It ended a few rounds later with no city losses.

now Im at 12th-13th century and Im on 80% reseach with income. (no banks yet) Its going smoothly now. Im still a few tech's behind, but catching on fast. Thinking to go for cavelry and attack who ever makes the wonder that reduces upkeep due to distance to capitol. Nice way to get an "outpost". Might take enuff cities to make a Domination victory. (my favorit)

When it comes to culture, I early captured stonehedge. So i keep culture floating this way. Im glad i tok expansive instead of cultured, because it helps later. +2 pop in end game is nice. Due to my great landmass i got most tradegoods, the once i lack I trade. My civics stayed less priority just slavery and org. religion.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Dactyl
I'd have to see an action report that spelled out how one goes about pulling this off reliably, and with a civ that doesn't start with Mysticism. I say "reliably" because this is pretty much an all-or-nothing approach. If you fail to get the Oracle, you're playing big time catch up.

Unless someone can show me a couple of example games on Epic speed where it works, I'll have to conclude that it's a Normal speed strategy.

Dactyl, I can write a detailed account later if you require it, but I tried a CS Slingshot on Monarch / Epic with Qin (who you'd been using) and built the Oracle in 840BC.

It was a decent start (river, cows, wheat and a grassland hill) but not untypical.

Build order : Worker, 3*Warrior, Library, 2*Warrior, Oracle, Settler
Tech order : AH, Writing, Myst, Med, Priests, CoL, CS


After the library I used 2 scientists for 25 turns to get the Academy, which was ready half-way through CoL. Qin's starting techs were excellent here, Agri for the wheat and en-route to AH, and Mining for the hill. Industrious was nice, but probably not needed, because the Oracle was due about 7-8 turns sooner than CoL, so I prebuilt a Settler to delay the Oracle. There may have been spot of MM along the way, but not much.

840 BC Savegame
4000 BC Savegame

[Dactyl]

Interestingly enough, on my last two tries I've gotten the Oracle, even though I wasn't specifically going for it. In both cases, I got BW first, so I wasn't just beelining for it. I got to the point where I could research Code of Laws and I said, what the hell. In both cases though, I had nice starts. Flood plains for food and hills for hammers. In the first I also had two gem tiles in my capital's "fat cross". In the second I had cows. I didn't play the first game out because I wanted to see if it was just one-time luck. The second I will play out.

Also these are the best starts I've had where I attempted this. That's one thing that bothers me in these discussions of strategies. People don't usually tell you whether they've rejected starting positions, or reloaded when a settler got creamed by an animal or something like that. I don't have a problem with rejecting starts or reloading. The game is, after all, an entertainment. However, in evaluating the possible effectiveness of a strategy, such information is useful. I don't mean to suggest that people have been omitting such information is this case, but I've tried other suggested strategies where they almost certainly have.

[Cort Haus]

So Dactyl, I've briefly documented an example for you, and no I didn't reload to get a nice start or reload after getting eaten by lion.

A response to my example for you would be nice. Do you now accept that it is possible on Monarch, and without Mysticism, and on Epic?

[DeepO]

Originally posted by xxFlukexx
I'm not convinced that the epic and quick speeds are entirely balanced. Sure it costs +50% and you get +50% more turns, but I am still not convinced that it's the same thing.

Purely in beaker and hammer costs, the mechanics scale to speed, yes. Quick, exactly the same as Epic, will give you the same bonus/disadvantage for producing something. Production is exactly the same, although it will feel different as you are 1.5 times slower.

that doesn't mean that Epic and Quick are the same games, quite on the contrary. But you'll see that primarily with unit moves.

E.g. worker actions on Epic take exactly 1.5 times as long as the same ones on Normal, which means that it is the same balance between the hammer cost of a worker, and how many improvements it can build over the course of a game. However, workers on Epic can move farther inbetween improvements: where a Normal worker achieves a certain efficiency with 2 turns inbetween improvements (as it needs to move onto forests for nistance), an Epic worker gets the same efficiency with 3 turns in between. That's one city farther: your workers are more mobile on Epic than on Normal.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dactyl
That's one thing that bothers me in these discussions of strategies. People don't usually tell you whether they've rejected starting positions, or reloaded when a settler got creamed by an animal or something like that. I don't have a problem with rejecting starts or reloading. The game is, after all, an entertainment. However, in evaluating the possible effectiveness of a strategy, such information is useful. I don't mean to suggest that people have been omitting such information is this case, but I've tried other suggested strategies where they almost certainly have.

Well, there was some discussion on this a few weeks ago. But look at the AU games: if you write a serious DAR, you also include where something went wrong. Last DAR, I've reloaded because of a mistake (a settler automoving, before I could scout as intended... he got eaten by a bear). Vel even lost, and wrote that.

But let's face it: you can't have the disclaimer of 'this is only one strategy, I'm aware there are others in CIV' every time you write something down. You can't include the disclaimer 'I've done this in multiple games, and so far I've had 7 successes and 3 failures'.

There are failures for everyone, Aeson also didn't wake up one day, decided he wanted to play deity, and won every game after that. You're supposed to learn from your mistakes, which means you've got to analyse what went wrong there.

DeepO

[Dactyl]

Cort Haus,

I accept that it's possible, and I really do appreciate your input. Now I would like to determine under what conditions one should go all out for C of L and the Oracle as opposed to some other approach. With Qin, it's also possible to get the Pyramids so that you can use the Representation civic, and the Pyramids tend to pop out Engineer GP's that you can use to hurry wonders. I don't yet know which is the better approach and under what circumstances.

DeepO,

I'm not suggesting a disclaimer, but I definitely think it would be helpful if someone were to say something like, "I tried this strategy ten times and it worked seven times." That kind of information would be very helpful. Even more helpful would be the start locations, resources, etc., on the wins and losses, so that one could determine when to pursue a specific strategy. IMHO, we should aspire to annotating our games the way chess players do. In the AU games, some people do that, and I applaud them because I find those annotations very useful, but I personally would like to see more of it.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dactyl
In the AU games, some people do that, and I applaud them because I find those annotations very useful, but I personally would like to see more of it.

It takes a very long time to wirte a report on a AU game. That's why there aren't more of them: I'm still playing AU100-A (I'm nearing the end of industrial now, so I'm one report behind).

AU 100 is an example of a less than ideal start for a CS beeline, too much food, little production. As more games are played, you're going to see more starting situations, and also see more reports on how to deal with that.

However, nowhere is is written that you can't play the same AU twice, with alternative starting techs. These are learning games: whether you win or not is irrelevant. As long as you analyse what yuo've done, what was good, and what could be better... my advice: try the AU game on Monarch a couple of times, until you have a strategy that works. then analyse what made it work. Write that down, and you're helping the community. Don't wait on others to do that for you, when you can be active in this yourself.

DeepO

[Dactyl]

DeepO,

You make a good point. I should be annotating some of my own games. To be honest, what has prevented me from doing so is the fear of appearing foolish. So many of the players who post here seem to be much more talented players than I am.

[DeepO]

appearing foolish? Heh, that's only relative. Everybody makes mistakes, and in writing these reports I noticed a lot of them in my games. There's a bit of a shame to admitting you discovered a mistake in your game, but that shame is misplaced. The AU games are not about bragging, and there is no dishonor in playing a lower level.

DeepO

[khearn]

Originally posted by DeepO

Delaying could also work very nicely with the memory of the build queue: just stop working on the Oracle one turn from completion, and start a barracks or so. The moment you need to, switch back to Oracle and complete it in 1 turn.

MMing, true, but easier to 'calculate' than switching to e.g. coast. Not necesarily the best approach in all situations, though.

DeepO

Just be careful not to forget that you have it queued. I had a game where I grabbed a couple of non-beeline techs so the Oracle was close to finishing serveral turns before I reached CoL. So I queued up a warrior in front of the Oracle. I was busy paying attention to moving scouts atound when the warrior finished and I forgot that the Oracle was in the queue. It finished the next turn, before I'd finished researching CoL. D'oh!

[Aeson]

Higher difficulties may require dropping the Library or eliminate the slingshot as a possibility. The only reason I tried it in AU100-A on Deity was because of Animal Husbandry and Mysticism from huts, noticing the AI definitely weren't full fledged Deity AI, along with the great terrain. The FP for the Capitol and the Oracle site with Cattle and Horses. Generally on Deity it isn't going to work.

There are a lot of ways to go about Oracle->CS, so it's hard to quantify when it's possible, when it's not. Just have to get a feel for it I think, understand the factors involved and rate what you know about the current game to give a likelyhood of it working out. One thing to watch for that I haven't seen mentioned is when Buddhism or Polytheism get founded. If they lag, you generally have more time to work with.

There are a lot of other ways to approach the game that are competitive with Oracle->CS in the long run. I only brought it up in the first place as a potential competitor to the "chop" type early expansions. It may be getting too much focus now.

(BTW, I still have a lot of trouble winning on Deity in general. It requires good play and good luck to win on standard type settings, as often one of your neighbors will have the ability to effectively eliminate both of you from the overall competition, if not eliminate you entirely.)

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Aeson
I only brought it up in the first place as a potential competitor to the "chop" type early expansions. It may be getting too much focus now.

Agreed. It's getting way too much attention, but somehow I'm finding myself defending the strategy over and over again. The problem is, that it is a very nice example of an alternative way, and that by doing the CS slingshot, you get a very good feel for other things you might try.

Early academy, for instance, is always nice. Early alphabet too. And the whole South path I still find one of the most exciting ones: go for harbors immediately, and make sure you've got the GLighthouse... you really can't go bankrupt in such a game.

DeepO