Vel's Strategy Thread, Volume II

[Heroes]

Originally posted by gentle
off-hand, I'd say it is 10 hammers per pop.
I think it is stated as mouse-over effect when you hover over the button in the city menu

No, when you are rushing something other than wonder, it's 30 hammers per pop. Quite powerful, indeed!

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by vmxa1
If you are talking about mid game or later, I would think this would be unwise. You have two big issues 1- culture often is very strong with even one city left.
2- citizen that will want to be part of their original empire.

None of these are concerns after you eliminate that last town. The later in the game it is the more powerful the culture memory is and the harder it is to get those borders to shrink.

There's also the issue that the more guys you leave alive, the more sides of your nation you have to watch out for. In the ideal situatino where you have eliminated everyone on your continent, then you only need to look for troop transports headed your way -- that's the most practical method when there are many AIs and continents. If you leave people around though, then they might attack you on the land or an enemy might attack you via open borders with your neighbor.

I don't like leaving potential enemies on my sides, so I tend to finish the civs off. Also, the starting city (which is often one of the last to be taken) typically has a great location and it is best if you maximize it rather than the AI.

In a game with other people (I've never done Civ with others...well except for once), I'd act differently. With AIs, however, I'll always eliminate them. That's assuming I am taking them out. I try to form solid friendships with a few of the AIs. Especially handy during the spaceship race, as you can get an ally and an enemy, both of whom are building spaceship parts, to go to war. Then they focus on the war and not the spaceship.

-Drachasor

[Dactyl]

When I find that I'm the only player on a continent that is not accessible with galleys, one or more of the AI players usually shows up just before I get optics. In the last couple of games, which I've played on Monarch level, I've attacked and sunk the first AI caravel that shows up in the hope of giving myself a better chance of being the first to circumnavigate the globe. Once it has worked, and once it hasn't. I don't know if the sinking of that caravel was a factor, but I figure it sets back one of the stronger civilizations in his explorations. Other than the fact that he's going to be ticked off at me, it doesn't hurt much because in both cases the AI opponent didn't manage to mount a counterattack before accepting a peace treaty.

[Cort Haus]

Leaving them alive on a continents map theoretically gives a tech & commerce trading partner, but after being weakened they may be both behind, and perhaps not keen to trade what techs they do manage anyway. Open Borders for commerce trading allows their settlers free roam, so may not be desirable.

Survivors can fill space you don't want to settle that would otherwise get barbed-up, and develop towns for later harvesting. If you kill them there are either badlands to manage or high city maint bills and slower tech. This can let rivals win the Optics & Circumnavigation race.

If you do let them grow back though, they can always be a potential nuisance. I recently killed one civ and spared the other on a 3-civ continent and spent forever on culture builds to claim land I didn't want them to settle without having to plant way too many cities. I ended up not having cities in good spots near my capital because I had had so many cities trying to cordon-off decent resource-land around the survivor.

[Dactyl]

I am primarily a builder and I have been playing something that is similar to Vel's imperial strategy. I have mostly played as the Chinese, though I've messed around with the Indians and the English, as well as a few others. A little while ago, I started an Epic game on Monarch level and decided to try the Incans. All I can say is: Wow! Though their early advantages are military, my initial experience has led me to believe that they could be the best civ for pursuing a builder's strategy. That early military advantage gives you room to expand early on without worrying about the other civs getting there first. It also makes the barbs much easier to deal with since the Quechacas can handle those barb archers without a lot of trouble. In addition, their financial trait should pay off down the road.

Basically here's how it has gone so far. I sent out a couple Quechaca's and found the Malinese nearby. I wasn't going to mess with them because their Skirmishers would chew up my Quechacas. However, I soon found the Indians. With three Quechacas, I destroyed one of their cities and took their capital, which was already well-developed. That put them out of the game and left me with a second well-sited city. I'm expanding now, on my way to my sixth city at about 250 BC. I've just finished researching horse riding, and I've got horses next to my capital, so I'm going to start building some horse archers to go deal with the Malinese, who are encroaching.

The only real downside I can see in playing as a builder using the Incans is that, if you take advantage of their early military strengths, it means forgetting about building early wonders. That might not be a big deal though.

[Drachasor]

Elizabeth of the British is also great for a builder or for the imperialist strategy. She doesn't get much early on, but mid-game the British become a powerhouse under her rule with half-cost banks and universities. A little later, when you get rifling, you also get a very powerful UU, the Redcoat. Attack of 16, but with +25% against gunpowder and mounted units (so that's a 20 against them). Very nice. I always try to get as many early melee units with City Attack 2 or 3 as I can. Turned into Redcoats those units become insanely good at taking cities.

-Drachasor

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Dactyl
The only real downside I can see in playing as a builder using the Incans is that, if you take advantage of their early military strengths, it means forgetting about building early wonders. That might not be a big deal though.

The may be scope for a wonder or two with the Incas if you develop your capital first. If the initial force takes an enemy captal, it's handy to have Stonehenge complete around the same time. If the captured capital is near other targets, that can build new quechas to carry on the campaigning, while the capital can build a library, a wonder, or run some specialists.

[lastchance]

Generally, I think the earlier a rush comes, the harder it is to stop (until you get Flight and Tank to overrun Longbowmen). All my blitzkrieging is generally done very, very early,

[Derelict]

Hi all,

One of the most effective civ's for the archer/chariot rush is Genghis via the Mongols. The key, and it's an absolutley devestating strategy, is to get a second city up fairly quickly and to start building the pyramids in your first as soon as possible. At all costs, using every trick available, you get those pyramids up because if you do, you'll own any early civilization and only become more powerful as the game progresses.

As soon as you have the pyramids up, immediately switch to police state. Ideally you'll have been able to produce another settler, along with as many archers and warriors (if you must), and have found a horse resource for chariots. Then you want to start building a mixture of chariots (like madness) and archers (2 at a time, to hold cities as you capture them and to use offensively when needed).

With police state you'll be able to outproduce any civ, in military terms, who has less then roughly 5 cities. They simply won't be able to keep up with you. Swarm them with archers and warriors if you must and have workers building roads, with a warrior escort if necessary, to get those troops pouring into the front lines. You should easily be able to capture three cities in short order and, by that time, will likely be reaching horse back riding.

As far as science goes, let the slider dip as far as it wants--just keep plowing city after city, civ after civ, using a mix of chariots and Keshik. Your army should be quite easily so big that even cultured cities can be taken down, without catapults, just by throwing unit after unit after unit against the defenders. You will capture the city as long as you produce nothing but military units (and the occasional barracks, as time and the war permit).

If your opponent starts producing lots of spears, build more archers than usual. They will produce super fast (quite likely in a single turn in your biggest cities) and swarm any spearmen with your cheap archers, either killing them entirely or softening up the enemy forces for your chariots and Keshik to make short work of.

Since Genghis is also an expansive civ, you should worker chop like mad during the lulls when you have lost any significant number of units. Chop and get your forces back to full speed--the enemy will certainly be turtled up and cannot risk doing the same. You will outnumber and overwhelm them. In a couple games with this strategy I was easily able to take on two civilizations at once--a new civ primed for takeover and a second civ that I was just finishing mopping up, and at that I had almost entirely archers and chariots into the first couple centuries A.D. (with some Keshik of course, but create a LOT of fodder--they will simulate catapults before catapults hit the field for anyone).

Obviously it is quite possible to continue pop-rushing even more troops after you've burned through your forests--that expansive trait pays yet another dividend for a strong and continuous military campaign.

Your signal to stop will be the first signs of medieval era units, most likely longbowmen. Keshiks and even hordes of chariots will have only the toughest time overcoming those, but by that point you will have a massive army and well promoted army and a massive sprawling empire. Then it's just a matter of cooling off and focusing on building infrastructure to get tech back in order with a focus on money generating buildings (markets, lighthouses, etc.) as well as, of course, courthouses.

Use your position to demand techs from other civs, or trade with them. Demand techs when you need a 10 turn breather. Make them cower at your massive army that can still pillage like there is no tommorrow even if you can't easily take cities anymore. And declare war again at the drop of a hat. Don't let anyone bully you, it will set a tone for the AI that will be sure to give you time to get your empire in order, and any pillage wars will only further fund that process. Keep pop-rushing early infrastructure buildings and produce ALOT of workers during that phase. You'll be surprised how fast you recover even if your tech slider has dipped to 20% or so.

As soon as you are ready, even before then, drop your slider down low to start earning wads of cash and upgrade your top tier units. Then repeat with Keshik and Knights, along with small groups of foot units used to hold captured cities and assist in the assaults. You can effectively repeat the entire process, albeit with necessary seige equipment, right on through the medieval and Renaissance periods without much to worry about--by then you'll have such a big empire that you can out produce in military terms, again thanks in part to police state, and overwhelm, overwhelm and overwhlem your way right into a domination (or conquer) victory.

Japan and Imperialism

Japan is another really strong candidate for a domination or conquer victory but plays best according to the "imperial" styled strategy mentioned by the OP. However, I see them as having an advantage due to starting techs that helps them get an early start toward a solid warmongering career.

Fishing and the Wheel don't sound all that flashy for starting techs but consider that Sailiing (and therefore 2 food/2 gold ocean tiles, just like having many grassland tiles with instant hamlets built on them for the price of a lighthouse) and Pottery (this should be obvious enough) are only one step away and should be the first two techs you research as long as a coastline is around--if not, find one! Getting two and possibly three strong coastal commerce cities by the time you are into the late classical/early medieval will ensure you can fund an army and keep military minded techs kicking all the while.

Paramount to this is getting the Great Lighthouse as well as the Currency tech underfoot--you want to start producing great merchants because they can either help immediately upgrade your experienced classical age units into experienced samurai--the premiere city attacker for the medieval if you ask me--or you can dump them into your strongest commerce cities as super specialists to maintain a very strong economy over the long haul.

It doesn't start aggressive, like the Genghis tactic, but rather works on building a powerful economy that can support a large and powerful medieval army--perhaps the best available for carrying on brief yet highly successful invasions to expand the empire in a nearly continuous fashion, something that Tokugawa's organized trait helps with immensely as you consolidate new cities very quickly and will certainly have ever more promoted city attacker available to renew your conquest at a moments notice.

----------------------------------------

Overall I'd have to say that the above two civ's are my favorite for warmonger games, the Mongol's basically where you play the role of the most aggressive barbarians in the game and the methodical and "thinking man's" wargames of the tireless Japanese.

[Mujadaddy]

Derelict: not bad, but you don't have to have the Pyramids, NOR do you have to use Genghis... I've used Egypt (and heard that Persia works, too) to do this exact same thing with CHARIOTS, not horse archers... The trick there is that you DON'T want to research Horseback Riding.....at all.... because chariots are 25 hammers and Horsemen are 50 hammers...

Otherwise, your Mongol rush sounds good

[Heroes]

Originally posted by Derelict
Hi all,

[B]

One of the most effective civ's for the archer/chariot rush is Genghis via the Mongols. The key, and it's an absolutley devestating strategy, is to get a second city up fairly quickly and to start building the pyramids in your first as soon as possible. At all costs, using every trick available, you get those pyramids up because if you do, you'll own any early civilization and only become more powerful as the game progresses.

Great! ... Up to what difficulty level do you think this strategy can hold?

[Derelict]

Originally posted by Mujadaddy
Derelict: not bad, but you don't have to have the Pyramids, NOR do you have to use Genghis... I've used Egypt (and heard that Persia works, too) to do this exact same thing with CHARIOTS, not horse archers... The trick there is that you DON'T want to research Horseback Riding.....at all.... because chariots are 25 hammers and Horsemen are 50 hammers...

Otherwise, your Mongol rush sounds good

No, you don't have to have the pyramids but it makes a HUGE difference. Let's put it this way, for every four cities you have, Police State effectively gives you a "free" city worth of military unit production. It means that you can outpace virtually any other civ you square off with, and can even hold another civ off while you batter down yet another once your momentum is kicking. Each additional city you capture only increases your ability to keep a stream of units heading to the front lines. It's a pure momentum play that doesn't stop till someone techs you out of your advantage, which often isn't for a few centuries A.D. at least.

The other reason I recommend Genghis AND most definitely horseback riding is because you can upgrade very experienced/promoted chariots to become your "uber" Keshik elite forces. Meanwhile you continue to throw fodder to soften up the enemy while your elite troops swoop in to finish the battles off before moving in toward another city where yet more fodder is moving into position. The Keshik basically move around the battlefield as your strike force, which is a great role for them thanks to their ability to ignore terrain for movement.

Keep in mind though, I'm not by any means recommending that you go full force with numerous Keshik--they are a fractional part of your force, but they are extremely useful for finishing off better defended cities compared to chariots and archers. After all, they are 50% more powerful then chariots, and that's without promotions. I basically try to setup two stacks of Keshick, roughly 3 or 4 in size, and everything else is chariots (mostly these units, and as many as I can field) and archers (in two's, who then occupy captured cities so the rest of the forces can keep moving on).

The other nice thing is that, once you've consolidated your initial ancient-to-classical era push, and have stopped due to someone else teching up to longbowmen or, more especially, pikemen, those few stacks of Keshick then can be upgraded for a few hundred gold into very tough knights, becoming once more your crack troops that, by now, will probably have several promotions under their belts. Definitely not the units to just throw away, but to break the back of the enemy when and where you need too!

P.S. The other reason that Genghis is more ideal than, say Egypt and Persia (in my opinion) is because those latter two civ's are all front loaded--they will have a very strong but much earlier and shorter "power" period then with Genghis. That is, with Genghis, you'll start off very nearly as strong as Egypt or Persia will, but will really blossom as your Keshik come out, further extending the time frame that the strategy is viable. Overall, the Keshik is a more powerful UU then the War Chariot or the Immortal the closer you move toward the Medieval period. Much the same way that the Romans tend to peak in the later Classical period due to the Prat's.

The other thing is that it is more likely to be able to attack wounded defenders in a city and walk away only lightly wounded or sometimes unharmed because of it's first strike. Try it sometime and you'll see what I mean--they are very effective once you've softened up the enemy with fodder units.

[Derelict]

Originally posted by Heroes


Great! ... Up to what difficulty level do you think this strategy can hold?

I've used it on Prince--although I've played a couple games so far on Monarch, I haven't tried this strategy with Genghis out on it. I guess it depends how quickly rival civ's can and do hit the medieval era, as that is pretty much the main signal that you should wind things down to get your civilization back in order. Since the AI also tend to be a bit more aggressive on Monarch, even if you are the big guy on the block, I imagine it is likely that you'll have less time to get your civ in order before someone decides to test you out.

On Prince, the only "problem" civ's I've encountered with it are those that tend to be speedy tech wise thanks to traits and the like (Elizabeth, etc.). If they are nearby, you should focus on them first because they will tech to medieval era units fairly quickly and basically staunch your ability to continue your push.

I know in one game I made a point of opening a limited war using whatever spare units I could to try and keep the economy devestated for Victoria, who was out beyond the civ I was primarily attacking and I just knew she would get ahead by leaps and bounds if I let her have free reign. It seemed to have really paid off, and I continued to open up war, and then settle every so often. I think it was very nearly 600 A.D. by the time I had to stop my push, I had captured a few of her frontier cities and had to stop because she was finally getting pikemen out to counter me well. Even if they get longbowmen, you can bottle them up for a while and continue to pillage and basically stifle any development.

The only other thing that will stunt this strategy is if you find you are on a smaller island with only one or maybe two other civ's nearby--once you need ships to transport troops it becomes more complicated and more difficult to pull off well because you can't just build a unit and send it immediately off to the nearest front without having estabished a decent navy...and that assumes you can reach someone without Astronomy.

Even still, if you conquer your island and make sure to get caravels out (to come into contact with others, obviously), and continue your focus toward getting astronomy, it's quite possible to invade a closer continent and establish a good foothold in a decent trime frame. A little diplomacy, and drawing others into attacking your target first to soften them always helps, naturally, along with as much tech trading as you can manage--even bullying smaller civ's into coughing up any techs you can force out of them.

Otherwise, on a larger map with 3+ civ's to conquer, you'll be extremely powerful and can certainly carry off a domination victory if you consolidate things well after your early push.

[Dog of Justice]

"CS Slingshot"
Another Oracle trick. Time the completion of the Oracle with your research of Code of Laws, and take Civil Service as your free tech. This, coupled with a Library with two specialists assigned (and a previously generated Great Scientist to found an Academy) can give you a massive boost to research in your Capitol, upon switching to bureaucracy, which can drive your research throughout the entire middle ages.

This isn't quite right. The point of the specialists is just to generate the Great Scientist for the incredible capital Academy; as soon as you have that, you're usually better off with no specialists.

[V3nom]

imho DoJ is right. When I use the CS slingshot my capital usually gets quite a few cottages early, which means assigning scientist specialsits can actually slow down my research.

To solve this I've begun to wait until after I switch to caste system and had a satellite city add the scientists. When my GL is done it takes at most 2 turns to leg it to the capital and do his thing. The academy doesnt go up quite as fast, but the extra cottages able to be worked more than make up for it imho.

Also I think its worth noting that the CS slingshot doesnt have to just be for a builder strategy. If after you pull it off you then research towards machinery (which doesnt take very long thanks to your science capital) you can quickly produce quite a force of macemen, which can trample over anything your opponents have.