Vel's Strategy Thread, Volume II

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Footie Mad
How about some unique unit specific strategy? This is a very hard subject that depends on the situation you are in, what goals you have and what civ you are. I'll try my hand on a few I have tried and the general usefulness of the unit in question.

Skirmisher - This is one seriously powerful unique unit that you can build an entire early expansion strategy on. They are strong enough to defend cities effectively, relatively cheap and don't require any resoursces. You don't have to rush to other military techs and can put the emphasis on expansion and infrastructure.

Quecha - Really good for super early rushing, but not quite as good as the skirmisher for expansion since they become to weak after a while I think.

Immortal - This is another one in the same category as the quecha but since i'm a mobility freak when it comes to units I like this one more. If you head for it early it's an absolute nightmare for archer units defending, but can also pillage effectively with their movement. I have actually had use for them as far into the game as longbowmen, since they are so cheap and get a bonus against archer units.

One underrated aspect of faster units early on is that you can leave them waiting between your cities in case of an attack and when it happens you can move them quickly on roads to fend of pillagers and attackers. You can be strong at the place you need it without wasting to much resources.

Jaguar Warrior - This one just boils my blood though I've only tried it once. To weak to be effective in taking cities and then what's the point of it....

A good start. Adding in the unit stats (including bonuses/weaknesses) would be good, too.

-Arrian

[Yosh]

The one flaw that I find with Velociryx's Imperial strategy is that by the time you are ready to fight, your opponent likely has some culture built up, which equates to 40%+ defense bonus; that in turn exponentially drives up the required size of your attacking force.

One strategy that might be viable along the "Imperial" lines is to beeline quickly for the chariots (and later HA's), and do a pure war of attrition, focusing on PILLAGING!

EDIT: I didn't read over properly what I wrote, and realized afterwards that beelining for Chariots and HA's is NOT necessary, and probably not needed for this strategy!

Pillaging, IMHO, is an oft-underestimated tactic, along with worker stealing.

Say you encounter your neighbor at a medium distance. Rather than building up an offensive force to capture his cities, focus on a minimal force needed to defend your territories (build some archers), and pillage his( just pump out 4-5 warriors - you don't need anything special to pillage, after all)! When your opponent only has 1-2 cities, pillaging any/all improvements in their territory isn't that challenging of a task, and with proper planning and timing, the capture of at least 1 worker should be easy.

The results of such a strategy are enormous! By pillaging his lands, you will gain gold (not much, granted, but some gold is better than none!), if you capture workers, you have increased your own improvements (and don't have to spend turns constructing your own workers!), and weakend your opponent - perhaps significantly! With the advantage you have over your opponent, you are free to continue growing in the vein of the "Imperial" strategy that Velo (sorry for the short name, but I don't want to spell it wrong!) laid out, and allow your opponent to found a couple more cities, or whatnot before you deliver the coup de grace (after construction and the catties/elephants!)

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Footie Mad
Jaguar Warrior - This one just boils my blood though I've only tried it once. To weak to be effective in taking cities and then what's the point of it....

Not at all too weak.

Just needs to be especially planned for. Something in the area of research: Mining, Bronze, Iron. (possibly grabbing an early religion as a side track)

You know you need not even concern yourself about whether you HAVE iron.

Forrest chop your first settler, and possibly a barracks depending on terrain (might need the forrest for production if no hills), produce Jaguars, crack the whip a time or two if you got good food production, kill neighbor. You'll be striking when he's only got 2-3 cities, not TOO cultured (assuming not creative).

Works well with a strat of grabbing the Oracle for Metal Casting. You'll want to work your way towards catapults soon if you're taking on a second opponent though.

[Thoth]

Originally posted by Arrian
Vel,

Maybe I missed it, but I couldn't find any specific discussion of poprushing in the "slavermaster" strat. Do we know numbers yet (i.e. X shields per unit of pop - forgive me if this is documented, but I did RTM and I didn't see it)? Do you use that second food-rich city to poprush an axe or two?

-Arrian

You get a base of 30 sheilds per pop, modified (I'm 90% sure) by any production enhancers (forge, building wonders with access to the right resources, the Org Rel bonus ect).

It's powerful, and at least as addictive as clear cutting. Use carefully.

[Arrian]

Seems like something most useful for non-expansionist civs (civs likely to bump into health limits before happiness ones...). Hmm, chop & pop pyramids...

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

Quecha-rushing vs the AI can be done either instantly or with preparation. Without - build half a dozen of them straight off the bat, fan them out to find the prey, then close and strike. If you get there too early though, there'll still be warriors defending instead of archers.

With good starting resources, worker-first to ramp up then a barracks to stamp out vet quechas every couple of turns or less. They can then be tuned against archers, melee, cities or for healing as you go. Bring an extra in case you meet a bear, though.

[xxFlukexx]

Re: Vel's Strategy Thread, Volume II

Originally posted by Velociryx
"Ponzi-Scheme"
Pyramid gambit. The most expensive wonder in the ancient age. Build it, and you can use any of the governmental civics you wanna, including "Representation," which gives each specialist you use an extra +3 Beakers of research. So if you're playing a specialist heavy game (to generate lots of G-Men), this could be JUST your ticket. Greatly sped to completion by chop, the presence of stone, or the industrious trait (or combinations of all three), Ponzi can catapult you ahead of the pack early, and keep you there all game.

Actually I would argue that the best part about Representation is the +happiness you get in your 5-6 cities.

Happiness is hard to get early game, I have a "early happiness path guide" in my head that if I ever get time I'll write down.

Early attack strats look interesting, but I dunno about delaying growth that much. I guess it depends on the map, if you play on a land map like pangaea, sometimes the AI cuts you off from land and it grabs resources like they are crack, so hmmmm. I usually only rush with the rushtastic UUs, haven't tried rushing with standard units, seems risky.

[Drachasor]

I tend to play a more "Imperialist" style game, but I go at it from a different angle than the one outlined here.

As far as production goes I start building warriors from the get-go. I usually keep building them until my city is size 2 or 3, depending on the speed of its growth (and how fast it can produce warriors--sometimes the starting city is a very poor producer). Then I usually build a settler.

While I am doin this I am usually trying to research to gain a religion. Even on Monarch I've managed an early religion with the English (who don't have Mysticism), though usually I have to get Judaism in that case. The Incas, of course, work great for this as their special unit takes the place of a warrior and they start with Mysticism (and they're financial, I am finding I like them more and more).

While this is going on my warriors are out exploring. I try to find one or two neighbors. I scout around their starting city, and when their worker comes to the edge of their border, I grab him (I try to have two warriors around when I do this, to ensure survival, but this often isn't necessary as you are going to be running away right after the grab). I then take this worker back to my capital (or new city if that has been made). This greatly damages the neighbor and makes it so that I don't have to spend as much non-growth time building workers. If I can manage to steal two workers, so much the better.

Usually this strategy requires that I get a military tech around this point. I usually go for Bronze Worker for chopping and axemen, who can hold their own throughout the ancient age as well as take cities. If I have time, then I get Pottery for Cottages before getting a military tech, but this is game dependent. I can have this free time because this early in the game the neighbors will want to make peace in 10 turns or so, unless something highly unusual is going on. Hence it is relatively safe (though they really dislike you).

Anyhow, ideally my first city is a decent producer. This allows me to place my second city in a good money-making/research spot. This is important since it is likely going to get the religion I gain (almost certainly it will get Judaism if I get it). Having it in a good cottage area means that I can put Wall Street there later on as well as the special holy city building, greatly increase profits (and excess prophets go there for the 5 gold/turn). In any case, by the time I have built 3 cities I need to have 1 that is a good producer and 1 that is a good research area. The other, often my starting city, is a bit of both typically.

I will often build Stonehenge with my starting city after I get a settler (and perhaps a worker or some more warriors) completed. This is a relatively easy wonder to complete, and gives a lot of culture/turn. Also it will give me a great prophet for my holy city. I try to snag the Oracle as well (this is more iffy).

Once I have 3 or so cities, bronzeworking (or sometimes I need to make use of horses), and the basic infrastructure techs, I go directly for alphabet, literature, and writing. If I get the Oracle I snag Theocracy at this point (usually the timing is just right). I usually trade for Iron Working, since I have always beaten the AI to alphabet--though I never trade alphabet unless most of the AIs have it, as it lets the AIs trade with each other. You need to keep the tech trading advantage as best you can. With Iron Working, I then move on to go after Currency, as this completes the basic infrastructure buildings.

During this time I churn out Axemen at my production city (which will have a barracks), and I snag a few cities from the AI. Outlying cities will only have 0-20% defense and usually only archer support. As the Inca I can often mass-produce the Quencha for conquering, though one needs to be ready to make a better unit for when the AI gets Axemen.

Anyhow, that's my basic strategy, though my research goals are adaptable. If I find I am close to aggressive neighbors or that they are producing Axemen earlier than expected then I will go for Bronzeworking a little sooner (or chariots and I can't find Bronze, then Iron Working if I don't have horses either -- if I don't have any of these resources then life will be a bit tough, but usually you can find someone to take one from, even if it costs a ton of archers).

I tend to not let my enemies live however. I take all of their cities. On continent maps I do my best to secure my entire continent, as the AI stinks at ocean invasions, so a decent navy can make your home cities impervious to the AI. Though, for this reason I have tended towards Pangea maps of late, since depending on the AI's cross-continental difficulties seems sorta like cheating.

-Drachasor

PS. So far this has worked well on Monarch, but I can't emphasize enough the importance of stealing an early worker or two. It truly makes a massive difference.

[Arrian]

Heh, just like in CivIII. I used to execute the worker theft all the time.

How about settler bopping? Given the higher costs of settlers now, nailing one of those early on would REALLY put a hurt on the AI.

-Arrian

[Firecrak]

I must say I am right there with you on the whole "I love to build, hate to fight". I often find I've missed my window during the ancient period to wound my neighbours, only to realise by the middle ages that they have spread like locusts and outgrown/outproduced me into a stalemate, where if I declare war, they will just rip up my precious cottages and other resources, yet take no cities because I have sufficient guards for a medium scale war. It ****s me to tears most times.

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Arrian
Heh, just like in CivIII. I used to execute the worker theft all the time.

How about settler bopping? Given the higher costs of settlers now, nailing one of those early on would REALLY put a hurt on the AI.

It's possible, but harder to do given the escort that settlers have and the limited window of opportunity. You only gain the same absolute benefit so I usually find it far easier to go with the worker strat. I try to take out settlers when I can though.

-Drachasor

[vmxa1]

I can't say as I have seen any shots at a settler early in the game. They tend to be caught in town in mid or late game.

Then again I often do not have open borders.

[Artuero]

How about exploring the costs and benefits of leaving your neighbor with one city versus destroying him?

If you destroy him, you get one more city to develop without having to produce a settler, and you get culture from that city to help expand your borders. You may also get access to resources or a seaport that you wouldn't otherwise have, but I suppose those benefits can be mitigated by proper planning (take the seaport, leave him the landlocked city).

If you do not destroy him, you may be able to get technologies from him in the future. And I suppose he has one possible trade route that you may get access to.

I'd be interested in what other costs and benefits, if any, there are to either approach, and what people think about that. Velociryx's post makes it seem like there is no question that the leave him one city approach is better than the conquer him entirely. Is that true?

[vmxa1]

If you are talking about mid game or later, I would think this would be unwise. You have two big issues 1- culture often is very strong with even one city left.
2- citizen that will want to be part of their original empire.

None of these are concerns after you eliminate that last town. The later in the game it is the more powerful the culture memory is and the harder it is to get those borders to shrink.

[lastchance]

I like the idea of early rush, leave the guy with one city to build up, and then bring in Cavalry/Tanks at the endgame to finally finish him off.

At the very least, you can't focus on completely demolishing one guy, you should make sure that no one comes close to your strength early game.