Vel's Strategy Thread, Volume II

[Arrian]

True that. I'm just thinking that conquest is often quite difficult due to the AI's stockpiling of archers in their cities, but their non-archer troop strength is probably such that (with a little planning) you can handle what they throw at you. Especially if you can manage to cut them off from key resources (easier said than done).

The primary goal of the war would be to promote your units while killing off theirs. This would require working at setting up some sort of a kill zone, which is hard in CIV b/c of the lack of ZOC...

-Arrian

[InThane]

Originally posted by Arrian
Then you make peace, beeline for a tech that allows you to upgrade these units to something more powerful (earliest examples probably are macemen or knights, later would be grenadiers or riflemen), and hit them for real.

Only problem with this is that there is an XP cap of 10 on upgraded units - I.E., only 10xp comes along with a unit when you upgrade it.

[Fosse]

That's three promotions though, and very handy when it comes to giving units promotions they can't earn on their own. If you manage to turn a City Raider III Swordsman into a City Raider III Rifle, watch out! Still... I never rush to upgrade a unit with 15 xp. Better to find a nice soft target for it first, then buy the upgrade.

I did this very thing in a MP game against a Mongol human. I promoted as many swords to have Formation as I could manage in a war against a horseless Egypt. I wasn't trying to take cities, just get promotions. In the end My swords crushed the first wave of Keshiks.

...then the second wave was pretty good odds... it was around the fourth or fifth wave that things went sour.... he had a lot of those things...

[Arrian]

The idea is to have the promos already in place, and then upgrade them. Yes, you will drop 'em back to 10XP, but you've already got a solid set of promos on that unit. Besides, I'm not sure you'd get much past 10XP per unit given this sort of strategy. Not unless you used theology and/or feudalism in addition to the barracks so they started w/more than 2XP... and those are expensive civics... What I'm after is low-intensity warfare, not something that requires you gear your whole civ to that purpose.

-Arrian

[Dactyl]

Interesting idea, but aren't those upgrades awfully expensive, and wouldn't that mean backing off on the science slider to generate the cash? Until late in the mid-game I never have all that much cash available. (I've been playing on Monarch level, so that remark applies there.)

[Arrian]

Possibly. Or the use of a Great Merchant.

I'm not thinking of a whole ton of units here... perhaps 10 or so on a normal map. 10 upgrades just isn't that expensive.

The idea being these would form the core of your conquest army - augmented of course by new unit builds.

Hmm... if you have horses early, perhaps a few chariots with flanking promos would be key to this. In coming AI units such as axemen/swords could be hit first w/chariots, which would hopefully withdraw. If they don't, that's not too horrible, 'cause they're cheap. Then the damaged AI units can be finished off with whatever unit you want to train up.

-Arrian

[Alan_Bernardo]

Vel,

I do appreciate the stuff you've done, and I've learned a lot about Civ IV from reading your stuff.

However, some of your language quirks can at times be rather annoying.

Here are a few examples. First, this incessant leading with the participal phrase is too wordy and pretentious.

Examples:

"Getting beyond the debates over what to build first in your starting city (which is really more of a tactical choice that plays to whatever strategy you are pursuing)...."

"Leaving aside specific beelines for the moment (rushing to a particular point in the tech tree in order to gain an advantage from it)...."

These types of sentences are everywhere and, in my opinion, way too frequent. I think you tire the reader too much when you use these introductory phrases.

Seeing that you know a lot about Civ IV (Myself, I'm just a beginner, and still learning), you shouldn't take my criticsms to heart. [see what I mean]

One other thing--

"(the enormous health and production malus you can be feeling by the late game)"

Sometimes you throw in a word that actually doesn't appear to be a word. I think I know which word you mean, but a look in the dictionary here and there never hurt anyone.

My guess is that you mean "malaise", don't you?


Still, I am truly enjoying your stuff. Those little things can sometimes be a turn-off, however. Please don't think I am trying to be nasty or anything of the sort. It's just that I recall going through this writing phase, where I used these long-winded phrases. Within time, as you discover more intriguing and engaging constructions, you'll see what I mean about this wordiness.

Keep up the good work! (And, BTW, excessive use of the exclamation point is a no-no, too. )

Take Care,

Alan

[Fosse]

That was the last post I expected to find in this thread, especially since I just finished reading a book about grammar a day or two ago.

Weird. I'll keep the thread off topic for the rest of this useless post by saying one reason I enjoy Apolyton so much is that its users don't write like illiterates. While this is the first post I've seen in which somebody brings up participle phrases, this place is not usually inhabited by people too lazy to spell out "you." (The expection apparantly being right after a new release. There seem to be a lot l337 Settlers here. I suspect they'll either learn or move over to CF. )

And I like that about 'poly, almost as much as I like threads like this one that make learning about the game much more interesting.

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Dactyl
Interesting idea, but aren't those upgrades awfully expensive, and wouldn't that mean backing off on the science slider to generate the cash? Until late in the mid-game I never have all that much cash available. (I've been playing on Monarch level, so that remark applies there.)

Often it does, but it is well worth it. If you have a good economy mid-game then you can stop science for about 5 turns and generate 1000s of gold (if it is excellent you might get 3000-5000, but the higher end is unlikely).

This is enough to upgrade a significantly sized army in a short time. During this you also make some more troops. If you are a little ahead of the tech race then you can unleash a devastating assault on an enemy civ. Attacking with 10-15+ of the newest tech units with artillery support so soon after getting the tech can catch an AI totally unprepared. Riflemen is one of the best times to do this, since the AI will have a ton of longbowmen and the like, since they don't upgrade to anything before Riflemen.

-Drachasor

[EscapedGoat]

My guess is that you mean "malaise", don't you?

My guess is that he doesn't

As far as I know, Malus is latin for 'evil', 'ill-effect' or something like that, used in this situation is the opposite of a bonus.

Allthough my latin isn't exactly great, I would think this word is the root for many other words in our language, like MALfunction, MALiscious, etc. I think Vel is just a very cultured boy

[kolpo]

It is my experience that at least at prince difficulty, forest settler chopping owns all other strategies in the long run. You first build a worker then a settler who chops forest to speed settler production. You build your second city near a forest and take the worker to there(or let him keep chopping near tehhcapital. You do this until teh first barbarians appear, then you build a defender in each city and start to escort settler(unless they go to save places). You still only chop for the settlers not military units or anything else, and you keep expanding until you get around 10 cities(after that becomes city maintenance expensive). If you play it smart shall you soon be able to run at 80% science and even have a huge money surplus(at 80% science) at the time you get universal sufferage. Allowing you to gold rush many modern wonders.

The extra cities you get that way is simply more important then the extra health of forests. Hills can be better mined(or windmills when very little food is arround) anyway, grassland can better be cottaged, near rivers are cottages/farms/watermills all better options then forests.

The aggresive early expnasion shall also give you extra health resource(or other resources you can trade for health ones). This easily offsets the health bonus of forests.

[khearn]

Originally posted by Alan_Bernardo
Vel,

I do appreciate the stuff you've done, and I've learned a lot about Civ IV from reading your stuff.

However, some of your language quirks can at times be rather annoying.

Wow, this is a suprise. I find Vel's writing to be very readable compared to many people one finds posting in this sort of forum. I'd rather read someone who mildly overuses participal phrases, than someone who can't write complete sentences, or even make a reasonable attempt at spelling. And frankly, I hadn't even noticed that he was overusing them at all (then again, if you'd asked me an hour ago what a "participal phrase" was, I'd have said, "Wait a minute, that sounds vauguely familiar, I think I recall waking up in my high school English class one day when the teacher was saying something about them, but I fell back asleep")

At least Alan was very polite and was clearly making an attempt to help, rather than flame. But I think there are plenty of other forum members who can use his help a lot more than Vel. Myself included, in all probability.

[Bluefusion]

Originally posted by Alan_Bernardo
Vel...

Here are a few examples. First, this incessant leading with the participal phrase is too wordy and pretentious.

I got a good laugh out of that. It has to be the first time I've ever heard the words "participal phrase" on a forum.

Perhaps we do get too lazy in our casual chatter.

Edit: I actually thought that Vel sounded more along the lines of my history prof. But, that could be good and bad. We all know what Ph.D also means

(Piled high and deep)

[Drachasor]

Well, I don't know about these "participal phrases", but I don't think Vel uses enough participle phrase. Indeed, perhaps only the participle phrase lends itself well to the nuanced and simultaneous thought processes that any good civ player must have (please bear in mind that I am not just saying this because I have a tendency to use such phrases myself). Perhaps if the reader finds himself tiring while reading such a sentence (something I find rather odd), then he should aquaint himself with other, simpler games, or, better yet, work on developing oneness with the participle phrase. In either case, critiquing grammar that is by and large excellent on almost any forum (that includes this one) is preposterous (for there are many more people that have far worse verbiage).

As for it making Vel seem pretentious...bah! I don't think it does anything of the sort. I think that critiquing someone on using a grammatical device whose terminology is relatively unknown would seem far more pretentious.

-Drachasor

[Arrian]

Um, yeah, so, yeah. Whatever. Let's talk about the game and stuff.

-Arrian, confused