Mali Delenda Est

[Vince278]

What would be considered an American wonder?
(the Constitution, Washington Monument, and Mt. Rushmore come to mind)

[AeonOfTime]

I am quite sure the guys at Fraxis did not go to such lengths to decide which civs to include in Civ4

As for me, I welcome the Mali as a nice and fresh addition to the game - I look foward to doing some diplomacy with them. As someone stated earlier, Civ has never really been about absolute accuracy, otherwise it would not be Sid meier game, it would be a "Sim Civilization" game from Maxis (Sim Life, Sim Ant, ring a bell?)...

I think you just enjoy arguing too much I don't care what civs are in as long as I can identify myself with some of them, hate a few and overall have some fun.

But hey, this thread is a wealth of information so go on, I'll "stand aside and look" (quote from Bob Marley's 'Redemption Song', as we seem to have some rastafarians in this thread, too )

[Lancer]

A random map will look nothing like earth. So, a civ that hit it big and died out gets another chance in Civ. Take Carthage for example. They had their capitol city destroyed, their soil sewn with salt. They shouldn't be in the game!

...But I like em in the game.

The Americans didn't start out in 4000 BC, they started in 1776. Hell, we haven't even had enough time to build a marketplace, let alone a Civ. The fact is, Civ is a game, they play with it when they make it, and they do it for fun as well as a paycheck. That's why Mali is in, and that's all the reason they need.

[Dis]

I'm showing my ignorance here, but what the hell is Mali?

I suspect many civs are in for political correct reason. Or for the fact that the game will be sold in those countries, and countries where the game is sold should have a civ in the game. except for Canada of course.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Dissident
I'm showing my ignorance here, but what the hell is Mali?

Mali was a Muslim empire in western Africa during the middle ages. Western Africa has actually seen three empires following each other with a similar (large) territory: Ghana, Mali and Songhay.
While the territory covered by these empires spanned much of West Africa (and that's big), the empire revolved around cities.

Despite a strong Arabic influence (at least, for the Mali - I don't know about Ghana and Songhay), these empires had a strong subsharian identity. Mali is often considered as the poster child of African civilization, as it brought centralization and urbanism (and all that comes along: scholarly research, trade etc.), and because it did have an influence on the Eurasian economy.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Point 1: The military is not the end-all criterion, but it is A criterion, and you seem to be very dismissive of it. Remember, Civilization games have dozens of military units available for training, and almost none of any other variety.

Military is A criterion, but you act like it's the be-all, end-all. It's nice to see Civs that didn't value military to the exclusion of all else.

Point 2: First of all, the amount of precious metals in someone's territory does not mean someone is going to be great, but even if it did, consider how many billions and billions of dollars worth of both gold and silver bullion were extracted out of their empire after the Spanish arrived? And that's not even counting what came before. Affecting one faltering country's gold market for 20 years is nothing compared to Incan gold altering the precious metals market of the world for centuries.

Oh please. Having gold in the ground or using the gold without influencing any prices or markets does not make a Civ influencial. And after the Incas were conquered and precious materials were taken out, that was gold extraction due to the SPANISH Civilization, not Inca. They weren't Inca's anymore. And that gold extraction in the New World is one of the big reasons Spain qualifies as a Civ worthy of inclusion!

Mali, OTOH, not only extracted gold, but put it on the world market, influencing supply and demand all over Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Not just that, but it had centers of salt mining as well. Far more influence.

Again, don't be so hasty to assault me personally. Attack my arguments and information as much as you want, but it's a poor debater who hurls epithets such as "biased," "stupid" and even "Nazi."

Well, when your statements show you are biased, then I figure, if the shoe fits...

Inclusion in Civ should be based on a civilization's merit, not on their skin color, race, religion, etc.

It is. And Mali surely qualifies. They are probably one of the best examples of a 'builder' Civ.

What do you think PC means? Where do you think the idiotic notion of putting in groups like the Sioux, Iroquois, Zulus, Dutch and Celts comes from, anyway? Trying to have diversification and please everybody. It's so annoying!

Oh, yes it is! Including a civ because of its race or geographical location and not because of what it actually did to deserve its spot in civ is definitely being PC!

I think both of you need a lesson in what 'PC' is. It isn't including something because of diversity makes a game more fun. Political Correctness is to temper statements or actions so a group won't get offended. Who is going to be offended if Civ doesn't include a 'black' Civ? African-Americans haven't gotten offended in past Civs were African civs were not included. When a black guy is included in a, for example, university for diversity, that isn't PC! That's to enhance the experience.

The inclusion is to make the game feel different when you play a different civ. It's for FUN's sake, not to make no one offended.

Please... "PC" is thrown around like it has no meaning anymore.

Man, you can change the city names for goodness sake! That's been a function since freaking Civ1! Do you call China, India, Britain, Persia, Greece, Rome and America cookie cutter? Each one is very different from the others, and contributed greatly to the outcome of world history.

You've described 6 Civs... you want Civ4 to have six civilzations? And Greece & Rome as well as Britain & America are very similar in culture. Sure they deserve to be in, but when you get a bunch of civs which are similar, it isn't as fun as having very different civs that look different on the map (city icon), sound different (voice of soldiers and city names), and thus feel different.

It definetly adds to the fun.

One criterion for civs vying for a place in Civ4 should be whether or not they are capable of constructing a Wonder of the World

"Capable" What does that mean? I'm sure Mali could have made a huge golden monument, but chose to trade it instead.

If it is actual Wonders, then what has Germany created? The Brandenburg Gate doesn't court. Neither does Mozart's or Bach's musical pieces, because those really aren't Wonders of the World, but individual accomplishments.

And does the University of Sankore in Timbuktu count? It's collection of ancient learning and manuscripts make it the closest thing to the Library of Alexandria until modern times.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Mali was a Muslim empire in western Africa during the middle ages. Western Africa has actually seen three empires following each other with a similar (large) territory: Ghana, Mali and Songhay.
While the territory covered by these empires spanned much of West Africa (and that's big), the empire revolved around cities.

Despite a strong Arabic influence (at least, for the Mali - I don't know about Ghana and Songhay), these empires had a strong subsharian identity. Mali is often considered as the poster child of African civilization, as it brought centralization and urbanism (and all that comes along: scholarly research, trade etc.), and because it did have an influence on the Eurasian economy.

cool info. Shows I know nothing about African history (at least not any history below the sahara). I know very little of the zulu. But it seems to me the Mali are more significant than the zulu? What are your thought on that?

[elrikk]

Originally posted by Vince278
What would be considered an American wonder?
(the Constitution, Washington Monument, and Mt. Rushmore come to mind)

Disneyland ?

Elrikk

[Aro]

Originally posted by elrikk



Disneyland ?

Elrikk

About the Constitution... No matter what you guys are doing with this great document nowadays ( Just kidding! ), but still the fact: It's a Great Wonder.

[Addled Platypus]

both sides here have presented information that found educational


could this be settled with a Duel...?

10 paces with the best MOD, then let the players decide

[Vince278]

Originally posted by elrikk
Disneyland ?

Elrikk

Small wonder perhaps. I believe France and Japan have one.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Aro
About the Constitution... No matter what you guys are doing with this great document nowadays ( Just kidding! ), but still the fact: It's a Great Wonder.

True, but if I had to choose the world's greatest document of all time I'd pick the Magna Carta.

[Xorbon]

I've been reading this thread, and I've come to a conclusion.

Moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed. -A.01

If that's the case then: the Aztecs ought to be destroyed!

What have they given us other than tacos and tortilla chips?

Seriously though, why has no one mentioned them while poor Mali has gotten thrashed and trashed?

[Sirian]

Originally posted by Lancer
A random map will look nothing like earth.

Depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

Randomnity is like music. Properly played on quality instruments, one might be able to make it sing.

Civ3's maps are occasionally great, but often they display a few minor glitches or issues that hold them back from their full potential.


Not what you were talking about, but sometimes I get stuck on disagreeing with a particular point and run off on a tangent.


- Sirian

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Military is A criterion, but you act like it's the be-all, end-all. It's nice to see Civs that didn't value military to the exclusion of all else.

We already have plenty of civs like that. The point is not that Mali had no military, rather that they lost!

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Oh please. Having gold in the ground or using the gold without influencing any prices or markets does not make a Civ influencial. And after the Incas were conquered and precious materials were taken out, that was gold extraction due to the SPANISH Civilization, not Inca. They weren't Inca's anymore. And that gold extraction in the New World is one of the big reasons Spain qualifies as a Civ worthy of inclusion!

Didn't you just say you DIDN'T like to see militaristic civs? Then why are you so adamant that the rape/loot/plunder Spanish civ should go in? Probably because I said they shouldn't.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Mali, OTOH, not only extracted gold, but put it on the world market, influencing supply and demand all over Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Not just that, but it had centers of salt mining as well. Far more influence.

The Incas put gold on their world market, trading with civilizations all over the Pre-Columbian world. I don't doubt that Mali had gold or traded, only that I don't think it made as much difference as you are trying to say that it did. And give over on the salt market. Salt is plentiful in numerous world empires.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well, when your statements show you are biased, then I figure, if the shoe fits...

Oh, I'm biased! I see! And here I was thinking that a bias was some personal and unreasoned judgment and prejudice, and I thought prejudice was pre-judging. But I guess I'm wrong. Coming to a reasonable decision after considering all the facts was a bias after all! Silly me!

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I think both of you need a lesson in what 'PC' is. It isn't including something because of diversity makes a game more fun. Political Correctness is to temper statements or actions so a group won't get offended. Who is going to be offended if Civ doesn't include a 'black' Civ? African-Americans haven't gotten offended in past Civs were African civs were not included. When a black guy is included in a, for example, university for diversity, that isn't PC! That's to enhance the experience.

The inclusion is to make the game feel different when you play a different civ. It's for FUN's sake, not to make no one offended.

Please... "PC" is thrown around like it has no meaning anymore.

You're right. The meaning of PC has been watered down. What it currently means is trying to include everybody to make them happy. In case you hadn't noticed, every previous Civ game HAS had at least one sub-Saharan African civ. Why? To be PC!

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You've described 6 Civs... you want Civ4 to have six civilzations? And Greece & Rome as well as Britain & America are very similar in culture. Sure they deserve to be in, but when you get a bunch of civs which are similar, it isn't as fun as having very different civs that look different on the map (city icon), sound different (voice of soldiers and city names), and thus feel different.

It definetly adds to the fun.

I only wrote about 6 civs because I was TRYING to be brief. If you really want me to write out why ALL 18 civs are diverse, then I will be pleased to humor you. For now, in the interests of brevity, I hope this suffices.

America - current global hegemon, Sid is American
Arabs - Islam, great military and cultural strength
Aztecs - token Mesoamerican Civ, big pyramids (better than Mali), large empire
Babylon - birthplace of civilization, science, religion, etc.
China - longest semi-continuous world civ
Egypt - Pyramids, very long-lived civ, culture
England - former hegemon, dominated the globe, English language, sun never set on it
France - cultural hegemon, Napoleon, Escargot
Germany - almost took over the world twice
Greece - influenced all of western culture, democracy, Alexander
India - great longevity, Hinduism, great culture
Japan - another almost took over the world civ., Shinto
Mali - token Sub-Saharan African civ
Mongolia - largest world empire
Persia - influenced proto-Judeo-Christian culture, big empire
Rome - influence still felt today, technology, culture, etc.
Russia - really big, massive continent spanning
Spain - kinda iffy but they needed an 18th civ

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
"Capable" What does that mean? I'm sure Mali could have made a huge golden monument, but chose to trade it instead.

If it is actual Wonders, then what has Germany created? The Brandenburg Gate doesn't court. Neither does Mozart's or Bach's musical pieces, because those really aren't Wonders of the World, but individual accomplishments.

And does the University of Sankore in Timbuktu count? It's collection of ancient learning and manuscripts make it the closest thing to the Library of Alexandria until modern times.

How about the Reformation? That changed the entire history of the world. Far reaching consequences.

Anyway, next time try to be more concise. It took me too long to respond to all of your blustering.