Mali Delenda Est

[H Tower]

I don't think Kuci notices that he's been pawned, he just keeps on spam, err, I mean posting.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander01


Eleanor Roosevelt?

Besides, everyone knows the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, Roman, nor an Empire.

As far as Eleanor Roosevelt being a woman leader of the United States is concerned, yes, she wasn't president- however, she did combat racism and work for civil rights for black Americans, and she was greatly involved in domestic and international politics.

During Franklin D. Roosevelt's presidency, Eleanor Roosevelt was an active First Lady who traveled extensively around the nation, visiting relief projects, surveying working and living conditions, and then reporting her observations to the President. She also exercised her own political and social influence; she became an advocate of the rights and needs of the poor, of minorities, and of the disadvantaged. In World War II, she visited England and the South Pacific to foster good will among the Allies and boost the morale of US servicemen overseas.

http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/erbio.html

If you can find something comparable for the entirely mythological Prester John, I'm sure we'd all be agog at finding it out.


As for the quote from Voltaire- I'm familiar with it, as anyone would be who had a broad knowledge of European history- however, in Voltaire's time it may have been true- in Charlemagne's or during the Ottonian dynasty it wasn't.

The issue at hand in any case is not past errors of Civ II when attempting to include female leaders for civilizations but whether or not a North West African civilization is worthy of being included- and considering that Mali can also be held to represent other similar civilizations in the same area, such as the empire of Ghana, or Songhay, I don't see why not.

It has everything generally required for civilization status- cities, literature, trading links, both African and international, advanced religion, art, metalworking, architecture, aninmal husbandry, pottery, medicine, et cetera.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander01


Where do you get off calling me Euro-centric for saying that Mali should not be in? I haven't said anything Euro-centric.

Oh, I don't know...

...this maybe ?

Africa is huge, but has no lasting acheivements... other than Egypt, which should count as Africa's token civ.

One usually finds it's far easier to make that kind of quote when one knows little or nothing about Africa or African civilizations.

A non-lasting achievement deemed worthy of inclusion in the Metropolitan Museum of Art- its counterpart is in the British Museum. This is the kind of work that prompted the Europeans who first saw it to attempt to attribute it to Carthaginians, Phoenicians, Egyptians, lost Romans, lost tribes of Israel- since it was 'obvious' to them that Africans coudn't possibly make anything so life-like.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander01

And maps! Show me a map in existence that puts Egypt on any other continent than Africa.

You mean like in Asia and in Thracian Europe ?

Under the pre-Ptolemaic pharoahs Egyptian power could (and did) extend into the Levant, where under Rameses II they fought the Hittites, notably at the battle of Kadesh, on the River Orontes in what is now modern day Syria.

Thutmose III also extended Egyptian power into Asia, having tribute paid to him by Cyprus and the Hittites.


Ptolemaic Egypt:

http://www.livius.org/ps-pz/ptolemies/ptolemies.htm

[Spiffor]

The ROmans and the Babylonians are nothing today. Their civilizations are ruins and museum pieces. Ditto the ancient Egyptians.

Obviously, since there is nobody to be genuinely proud of Roman, Babylonian or Egyptian achievements today, these civs must be dropped

[Harovan]

Even more, there are doubts, that they ever existed. All these antiquities sported in museums and tourist sites are not historical proof, but cheap scam made by local authorities to attract attention.

Capitalism.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Alexander01 Historically, who could Mali beat, one on one? And not just militarily either. Economically, culturally, scientifically, etc.

Medieval Mali was more advanced, in many of these aspects, than medieval European civs. Richer and scholar-friendly, while the Europeans were feuding with each other.

They also beat the Mongols in any domain but militarily.

[ArchdukeNewell]

to Molly Bloom,

Obviously, you have no idea what the word euro-centric means. Here is a brief etymology lesson. Euro-centric: focusing or spending an inordinate amount of praise on Europe and/or European achievements.

Now, correctly noting that Africa has had a much much smaller impact on the world than basically everyone else, does not fit that definition of euro-centric. Alexander01 has never given more attention or praise to Europe than the rest of the civilized world. Unless you ignore his comments on Persia, Babylon, China, Egypt (which, despite your pathetic argument is still in Africa, colonies outside it do not move its base), Mongolia, India, Mesoamerica, Asia Minor, etc, etc, ad nauseum. He rightly notes that Europe has had achievements worth recognizing in the last five hundred years. If this is what you consider euro-centricism, then you need to educate yourself on the English language (which being the de facto lingua franca is another Western achievement which I believe has already been noted).

Ivory masks are wonderful, but if every stone age group that learned to carve animal bones was in Civ, we'd have hundreds if not thousands of civs to play. The bar has to be set a bit higher than that I'm afraid. I'd be interested to hear about all the lasting achievements the Malinese had, so you claim, in religion, philosophy, science, literature, etc. And even art if you can come up with something better than one example of stone age bone carving.

/rant off

Now, what I am really upset about is that the Ottoman Empire is being left out. Can anyone make a rational argument that they are less worthy of inclusion than the Malinese? Their lasting achievements include, the development of gunpowder weaponry (and before anyone snarkily mentions that the Chinese invented gunpowder, I already know that, but they never did anything useful with it, the Ottoman Empire weaponized gunpowder and thus revolutionized warfare around the world). I would put their artistic acheivements in calligraphy, jewelry, and painting as millenia ahead of the Malinese (and the co-existed tyo boot) /points at picture at bottom of article

Ottoman architecture was very advanced for its day and has the added bonus of not melting in a rainstorm.

Also, in geographical size, population, length of existence, and influence in the world, the Ottoman's clearly outstrip the Malinese. So how can one logically reject such an obvious candidate for inclusion? It probably has to do with anti-Islamic feelings (man... we already included the Arabs, how many more of these Muslims do we have to put in?), but I digress.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by molly bloom

One usually finds it's far easier to make that kind of quote when one knows little or nothing about Africa or African civilizations.

Attacks against my supposed lack of knowledge neither aid your arguments nor amplify African civilizations.

To the contrary, I've studied sub-saharan African civilizations to a great extent, including Mali, Songhai, Ghana, in addition to Benin, Kush, Axum, Meroe, Great Zimbabwe and the Bantu. I find them all quite fascinating. Nobody is saying that they aren't civilizations, as they most certainly are, only that they do not merit inclusion in Civ4. (At least, not until the expansions.)

My position is, and always has been, that Civs in the initial version of the game should be the civilizations with the greatest impact on the world (Example: Greece, yes. Indonesia, no. Japan, yes. Sioux, no. Britain, yes. Mali, maybe in an expansion.)

I am not attempting to belittle Mali in any way, I just don't think they stand up to the towering, monolithic likes of China, India, or Persia, all of which have had a massive undisputed (and undisputable) impact on the entire world.

As for Egypt, the Ptolemids don't count -- they're Greek. Firstly, we're referring to Egypt itself, the "Black Lands of the Nile," the Old, Middle, and New Kingdoms, to get that straight. Second, the territorial expansionism of Thutmose III and Ramses II in the Levant does not change the fact that Egypt is in Africa, which is my point. Your arguments to the contrary only serve to make you look silly. By that logic, France, Germany, Spain, Russia and Britain are not European because they expanded out of Europe.

I'm saying: Egypt is in Africa. Continue to try to prove that it isn't, and I'll show you what drugs you're smoking.

Furthermore, Moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed. -A.01

[Aro]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Actually...



And which of your points did I miss?

Wait a minute...
Kuciwalker, you are...were... Skywalker???



Keep Mali in! (just to be on topic.)

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by molly bloom

As far as Eleanor Roosevelt being a woman leader of the United States is concerned, yes, she wasn't president- however, she did combat racism and work for civil rights for black Americans, and she was greatly involved in domestic and international politics.

If you can find something comparable for the entirely mythological Prester John, I'm sure we'd all be agog at finding it out.

As for the quote from Voltaire- I'm familiar with it, as anyone would be who had a broad knowledge of European history- however, in Voltaire's time it may have been true- in Charlemagne's or during the Ottonian dynasty it wasn't.

Holy Roman Empire
No. Even in the days of Charlemagne and Otto, the HRE was not ever Holy or Roman. Sorry. That it was an empire under Charlemagne is true, but that was a completely different empire than its Ottonian successor. The Carolingian Empire (founded, AD 800) died with the last of the West Frankish dynasty. The Ottonian Empire (founded AD 962) was an attempt to revive Charles' greatness. They did, to some extent, but the damage was already done; the HRE now found itself subject to Popes, Electors, rebellions, and disunity. Let's call it the Secular German Confederation of Feudal Duchies and Principalities.

Prester John
The notion of Prester John is based on the Christian Ethiopian Kingdom of Ezana, the historical germ for the convoluted notion that passed into European legend. Yes, the Europeans were wrong on both the size and longevity of the kingdom, but what weren't the Europeans wrong about in the early middle ages anyway?

Eleanor Roosevelt
It was a joke. Do you understand sarcasm? I was listing a bunch of mythological figures and put an historical individual on the end as a joke, to see if anyone caught it. Don't think too hard about it.

But anyway, that's not the main point of this thread, which is:

Moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed. -A.01

[Imran Siddiqui]

My position is, and always has been, that Civs in the initial version of the game should be the civilizations with the greatest impact on the world

And the Incas fit that how? Hell, Mali even had more gold than the Incas.

Mali fits more than the Incas.

Furthermore, they're in and they ain't going to taken out, so nyeh .

[Aro]

Originally posted by Alexander01


Moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed. -A.01

Here's the deal: buy the game, play a MP game as Rome or Greece or else an some other guy (not me! , I don't want to be destroyed! ) will play Mali.

Go, Mali, go!

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

My position is, and always has been, that Civs in the initial version of the game should be the civilizations with the greatest impact on the world

And the Incas fit that how? Hell, Mali even had more gold than the Incas.

Mali fits more than the Incas.

Furthermore, they're in and they ain't going to taken out, so nyeh .

For the last time, I don't care how much or how little gold a civ has! China didn't value gold so much! They focused on silver and jade, but we don't dispute their claims to civilization over gold.

As for the Incas, they were more advanced than people often give them credit for. Don't compare the Malinese at their zenith with the Incas at their point of collapse. The Spanish pushed the Incas off the cultural cliff when the Incas were already in a decline.

Here's some of the Incas' accomplishments: brain surgery using hardened copper and obsidian tools, 30,000 km of efficient roads, the civil service, a form of due process, constructing Machu Picchu in the mountains, in addition to being the dominant military power in their region.

Don't be so hasty to thrust the Incas aside.

By the way, I'm not trying to get the Malinese removed from the game. That would be a lost cause. I know that Firaxis wouldn't care anyway. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the issue of their inclusion.

And moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell
I'd be interested to hear about all the lasting achievements the Malinese had, so you claim, in religion, philosophy, science, literature, etc. And even art if you can come up with something better than one example of stone age bone carving.

Timbuktu and Jenne were subsaharian Africa's most important centers of learning at the time. The priests of Timbuktu have been instrumental in the spread of Islam in western Africa (something that has still strong effects to this day). Gao was an important center of trade.

The Malians built a great many mosques and libraries, with their specific "Sudanese" architecture ("Sudanese" comes from an Arabic word, and not from the country currently called Sudan). An example of the Sudanese architecture can be found here

The Malians (more accurately, the three Civs that followed each other in Western Africa: Ghana, Mali, Songhay) also brought central government where there were only small chiefdoms. This included conquest and assimilation in a fashion similar to other convulted iron-age areas. However, since nobody cares about African history, establishing an unchallenged empire doesn't look like an achievement as impressive as in other parts of the world.



It's par for the course of quite a few civs that are usually included in Civilization.