Mali Delenda Est

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Because China had such an enormous effect on the Americas...



How so? No matter how powerful you are, if you don't have much effect far away, you're just a regional power.

So Greece under Alexander, Rome, China in the Middle Kingdom, Arabs, Turks, English, Spanish, etc, were all world powers.

They were not.

What constitutes "the world" has changed over the course of history.

[Kuciwalker]

Actually, "the world" is stayed large and round throughout history.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Actually, "the world" is stayed large and round throughout history.

I think you are confusing "the world" with "earth"

And if you are doing that, you could follow that logic and say that the USA is not a world power today, because it can not exert it's power beneath the surface of the earth, or in the deepest reachs of the oceans.



But, anyways, the word "world" is much more flexible than that. An author can create worlds simply by writing them down on paper. Thousands of years ago, when the "world was flat" and long distance travel difficult to the extreme, a continent - an island, even -could be a world in it's own right. Numerous worlds existed on earth then, completely impervious to each other's existance.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by sophist
That's a pretty short-sighted view. I didn't mean that population was the only thing that mattered, just that it mattered a lot more than dimensions. I mean, by that logic, you could say that the Turks occupied 3 continents and the Chinese only one and the Indians only a sub-continent, so Turks > Chinese > Indians.

Dimensions with reasonable population matter way more than a bunch of people crammed into a small space. They're still not doing anything but self-influencing, so why should anyone else care?

If it turned out that there were ten billion people living on some island in the middle of nowhere, but they'd never affected anyone else in the entire world, would they deserve to be in as a civ? No.

I was talking about "things worth remembering" and "no lasting achievements." But you knew that and preferred to make a lame joke.

We haven't seen anything worth remember, or we'd remember it.

Wow, what a comment. No wonder other countries don't like us. Yes, I said "us." Maybe you should look past your knee-jerk chauvinism. Winning WWI and WWII sure was nice of us, not that we did it on our own. Those are pretty recent history, too.

Cut the political crap. If you want to argue that, go to the OT. Stay out of here.

When you think about what history books 500 years from now will say, well, it's not so clear that the US will get a better treatment than, say, 15th century Poland.

Yes it is.

Due even more to the US than the British Empire, English has become the new lingua franca of the world. American culture has been absorbed or adopted in every country of the world. America's relative influence in the world is drastically greater than that of any country previously.

American power is already getting challenged by Chinese power.

No it's not. Maybe in 30 years it'll be challenged. Now, China just makes crap for us to use.

The US has been a world power for about 100 years, and unequivocally the world's most powerful country for about 20. America has a long way to go before we match Britain or Rome.

No it doesn't. Britain and Rome never touched us. In those years we've had more of an influence on world culture and langauge that Rome did in its centuries.

I see. So pandering to Americans is ok, but not pandering to people who are a little too focused on political correctness?

PC idiots aren't the major intended audience for the game.

Maybe Civ should just start in 1500, then. Forget all those ancients; they're old news. What have you done for me lately?

Once again you fail to understand.

Really? Persia was pretty big.

And it's in the game.

So was the Greco-Bactrian kingdom.

And they were just a cultural offshoot of the Greeks, who are also, by the way, in the game.

I think it's harder to tell than you think. Chinese and Indian cultures are so fully assimilated so you're not even aware of them. For example, Indian numerals, without which there would be no Western banking tradition.

Those are Arabic numberals.

Besides, have you actually been to those places to know that our culture has been exported there?

Did you actually visit the Greco-Bactrian kingdom to see how big it was?

I would, but neither telephones nor either of us existed in 500BC.

In 500BC China had a vast influence on the Americas, Europe, and Africa?

I could call you now, though; open your eyes and see what China is doing right now. They're going to be #1 in our lifetimes.

Going to be... so what? They aren't, yet, and nothing is certain.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by General Ludd
I think you are confusing "the world" with "earth"

And if you are doing that, you could follow that logic and say that the USA is not a world power today, because it can not exert it's power beneath the surface of the earth, or in the deepest reachs of the oceans.

But it can exert its power on every person on the earth.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


But it can exert its power on every person on the earth.

Not simultaneously.


Anyways,

And I presume that your lack of response to any of my other points is a concession to each of them

[ArchdukeNewell]

Amen, Kuciwalker. You just posted everything I was going to say. Thanks very much!

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell
Amen, Kuciwalker. You just posted everything I was going to say. Thanks very much!

No kidding! Thanks Kuci and Archduke for standing up for reason.

"knee-jerk chauvinism, my foot!"

Moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by General Ludd
Not simultaneously.

Actually...



And which of your points did I miss?

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


And which of your points did I miss?

The ones which where relevant to the discussion.

But, anyways, the word "world" is much more flexible than that. An author can create worlds simply by writing them down on paper. Thousands of years ago, when the "world was flat" and long distance travel difficult to the extreme, a continent - an island, even -could be a world in it's own right. Numerous worlds existed on earth then, completely impervious to each other's existance.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by sophist

Really? Persia was pretty big. So was the Greco-Bactrian kingdom.

I never said Persia wasn't. I personally am a fan/student of ancient Persian culture, Zoroastrianism, etc. They definitely belong in.

As for the Greek succesor kingdom in Bactria, I don't see how they're relevant. They're just like the Seleukids, Ptolemids, Antigonids, Attalids, Pontii, and every other successor kingdom, none of which should be in the game due to the redundance that would exist with Greece.

(That concept is why Austria, Byzantium, and the Netherlands shouldn't be in the game.)

Well, Moreover Mali ought to be destroyed. - Alexander01

P.S. What did Menander ever do for the world? Those giant Buddha statues that the Taliban mutilated?

[Alexander I]

Sorry. Accidental Double Post.

[sophist]

Originally posted by General Ludd

And if you are doing that, you could follow that logic and say that the USA is not a world power today, because it can not exert it's power beneath the surface of the earth, or in the deepest reachs of the oceans.

Not if people don't keep buying those SUVs ;-).

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Cut the political crap. If you want to argue that, go to the OT. Stay out of here.

He called non-US countries losers and I'm the one spouting political crap? Take some deep breaths.

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

American power is already getting challenged by Chinese power.

No it's not. Maybe in 30 years it'll be challenged. Now, China just makes crap for us to use.

Read the newspaper. Or a magazine. Newsweek had a big story recently. They're not even #2 yet, but they're a lot more than a cheap factory.

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

No it doesn't. Britain and Rome never touched us. In those years we've had more of an influence on world culture and langauge that Rome did in its centuries.

No, in, influence, culture, language, and centuries are all derived from Latin.

You ignoring indirect effects, which are much greater. Rome influenced every European and Middle Eastern power since, well, Roman times. Those influences may have become submerged, but they are many. There were Czars until ninety years ago, rulers who called themselves after a Roman 2000 years dead and gone.

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

So was the Greco-Bactrian kingdom.

And they were just a cultural offshoot of the Greeks, who are also, by the way, in the game.

The English are just an offshoot of the Germans, French, and Romans. And the Americans are just an offshoot of them.

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Those are Arabic numberals.

Are you sure about that? The truth is just a google search away. Kind of damages your credibility when it comes to debating history.

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Besides, have you actually been to those places to know that our culture has been exported there?

Did you actually visit the Greco-Bactrian kingdom to see how big it was?

Nice straw man.

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

In 500BC China had a vast influence on the Americas, Europe, and Africa?

There weren't civilized people in Europe to influence, and, according to some participants in this thread, no civilized people in Africa worth acknowledging ever. As far as the Americas... did Rome have a vast influence there? Yet you count them as a world power.

This is all a distraction. Human history is complex. It's hard to say who influenced what once the time line gets long enough. A influences B who influences C who influences D who never heard of A. That's history. Singling out just one nation ignores that they all have stood on the shoulders of giants (and yes, I know he was taking a shot at Hooke).

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by sophist

He called non-US countries losers and I'm the one spouting political crap? Take some deep breaths.

I think I missed that. How did I call non-US countries losers again? I don't remember saying it, though honestly there are a few that qualify, like modern France, but I digress. By the way, I'm a citizen of Germany as well as the USA.

Originally posted by sophist
Are you sure about that? The truth is just a google search away. Kind of damages your credibility when it comes to debating history.

If your knowledge is based on google searches as its source, then I'm very worried about you.

[Imran Siddiqui]

How so? No matter how powerful you are, if you don't have much effect far away, you're just a regional power.

Bull. A world power is a country that is one of the most powerful in the world, not one that can affect everyone in the world.

I'll trust the Encylopedia Britannica over you, thanks.

Those are Arabic numberals.

... which came originally from India. Thanks for playing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals

Originally posted by Wikipedia
The term "Arabic numerals" is actually a misnomer, since what are known in English as "Arabic numerals" were neither invented nor widely used by the Arabs. Instead, they were developed in India by the Hindus around 400 BC. However, because it was Arabs who transmitted this system to the West after the Hindu numerical system found its way to Persia, the numeral system became known as "Arabic". Arabs themselves call the numerals they use "Indian numerals", أرقام هندية, arqam hindiyyah).

KuciPWNED!

He called non-US countries losers and I'm the one spouting political crap? Take some deep breaths.

Eh, don't bother. Kuci doesn't take to being pwned over and over again very well.