Mali Delenda Est

[Alexander I]

I object to the inclusion of the Malinese Civ into Civ4 at the expense of some other Civ which in all likelihood contributed much more to world society and would also be much cooler to play.

I refer to the esteemed Roman politician Cato the Elder. Here is an excerpt from his biography as found on wikipedia.com.

"Almost his last public act was to urge his countrymen to the Third Punic War and the destruction of Carthage. In 157 he was one of the deputies sent to Carthage to arbitrate between the Carthaginians and Massinissa, king of Numidia. The mission was unsuccessful and the commissioners returned home. But Cato was so struck by the evidences of Carthaginian prosperity that he was convinced that the security of Rome depended on the annihilation of Carthage. From this time, in season and out of season, he kept repeating the cry: 'Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.' (Moreover, I advise that Carthage should be destroyed. - Plutarch, Life of Cato) He was known for saying this at the conclusion of each of his speeches." - wikipedia.com

In addition, upon the destruction of the city of Carthage, Cato purportedly uttered the following: "Carthago Delenda Est," meaning "Carthage is destroyed."

Therefore, in protest to the inclusion of Mali into Civ4, I shall now be including the following statement into my signature: "Ceterum censeo Malinem esse delendam."

Thank you for you time. Please relegate Mali to the third expansion pack. Or the fourth. -Alexander01

P.S.

[Alex]

Ave Imperator, morituri te salutant.

[Guynemer]

Of fer crying out loud, hasn't this topic been beaten to a bloody death several times over?

[Jaybe]

Please excuse my ignorance: How does Carthage relate to the Mali, other than both were based in Africa??

Assuming no one is accusing Carthage and Mali being one and the same; with Carthage in Civ3 (and contributing so much to the Roman Empire by challenging it to their peril), why not switch to the Mali?
I obviously know little of them and their inclusion into the game will help to relieve that.

Addendum: See, their inclusion in the game has already helped me relieve some of my ignorance of them!
Civilizations in Africa: Mali

[Alexander I]

My point -- I was being tongue in cheek;

"Moreover, I advise that Mali should be destroyed."

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Alexander01
My point -- I was being tongue in cheek;

"Moreover, I advise that Mali should be destroyed."

Don't you have to have a "tongue in cheek" smiley (or other graphic) to be tongue in cheek?


I suppose you like to play Rome on an Earth map, starting on the seven hills of course. Should make any Mali in sub-saharan Africa easy pickin's.

[Vince278]

I'm surprised to see how quickly Mali has lost respect.

[Jaybe]

If you want the Mali to have more respect, you will probably have to BE Mali when you play the game.

[Vince278]

My computer already respects me.

[DerSchwarzfalke]

Mali is probably a better inclusion than the Zulu, since it was a more urban civilization in the sense that the Civ series tends to celebrate. Just because it is not particularly known in the Western sense does not decrease its value or importance to the African continent.

I might have preferred a broader Bantu civilization, but in fairness such a thing never really existed.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Jesus... Civ is supposed to be encompase human history, not just those histories that Westerners like to hear about. The Malinese civ is worthy of inclusion and at its height was just as great as the Aztec and Inca civs. Since it was in Africa, we just don't care enough about it.

Besides, Africa is a big continent and has many people. It deserves more than one civ.

Some reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire

Sundiata's grandnephew, Mansa Kankan Musa I or Musa I, ruled over the Mali Empire while it was the source of almost half the world's gold.

On his pilgrimage to Mecca, Musa gave gold away generously. When he passed through Cairo, he gave out so much gold that the price of gold didn't recover for 20 years.

[DerSchwarzfalke]

Thank you, Imran.

[Vince278]

I've always thought ancient Zimbabwe to be a worthy addition.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Jesus... Civ is supposed to be encompase human history, not just those histories that Westerners like to hear about. The Malinese civ is worthy of inclusion and at its height was just as great as the Aztec and Inca civs. Since it was in Africa, we just don't care enough about it.

Besides, Africa is a big continent and has many people. It deserves more than one civ.

Some reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire

Sundiata's grandnephew, Mansa Kankan Musa I or Musa I, ruled over the Mali Empire while it was the source of almost half the world's gold.

On his pilgrimage to Mecca, Musa gave gold away generously. When he passed through Cairo, he gave out so much gold that the price of gold didn't recover for 20 years.

While we're at it, why don't we just add the Ethiopian kingdom of Prester John!!!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander01


While we're at it, why don't we just add the Ethiopian kingdom of Prester John!!!

Because that would be introducing a mythological figure, unlike the real world's Mansa Musa, whose empire was greater in size than the Holy Roman Empire.

The gold from Malian mines set the gold standard for the coinage of Western Europe and Mali was a part of an international trading system that stretched from West Africa to Canton. Malian gold played a part in the revived post-Black Death economies of Western Europe and in the Mameluke state in Egypt.