Mali Delenda Est

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Aro
Two words: Haile Selassie

I never thought too highly of Selassie.
(besides, he was Ethiopian)

[ArchdukeNewell]

If you take away Russia and the 3/4 of China that is mostly uninhabited, then Asia is roughly the size of Europe anyway.

In the 500 years that Europe has been significant, they've practically sat on the world. Try to think of a country that has never been under a Western thumb. I came up with Thailand. That's all I could think of. Care to find another?

[Vince278]

Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell
In the 500 years that Europe has been significant, they've practically sat on the world. Try to think of a country that has never been under a Western thumb. I came up with Thailand. That's all I could think of. Care to find another?

England sat on Siam for awhile.

How about Japan? They were influenced by some western nations but nobody ever dominated them.

[Aro]

Originally posted by Vince278


I never thought too highly of Selassie.
(besides, he was Ethiopian)

Yep, Emperor of Ethiopia. And the Rastafari Prophet, or Demi-God.

For the record: I'm not a rastafarian.

Look Here

Google:

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by DerSchwarzfalke
The fact of the matter is that the Civ series has been rightly criticized as excessively Eurocentric,

In case you hadn't noticed, its playerbase is also Eurocentric. So I must say, the Eurocentrism is a good thing. It results in more people feeling more familiar with the civilizations they are dealing with.

[Aro]

Sounds familiar... Europe civilizing the world.

Oh well... Vae victis!

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by sophist
England and France have mattered on a global scale for about 500 years.

Yes, these past 500 years.

Germany, as a single cohesive nation, has been hit or miss for 1500 years. China and India, on the other hand, have mattered for at least 3000 years, even when they were collapsing in anarchy. It's only slightly less so with Persia, but they've had a good long run as well. Equating the treatment by numbers is overly simplistic because it ignores the differences in population and longevity. European nations measure in centuries; Asian ones measure in millennia.

Dinosaus mattered for millions of years! They deserve inclusion over everone else

Well, no, because the concept of European is a modern one.

Greece and Rome had empires touching Africa and Asia. Controlling "Super"-Saharan hardly counts as "spanning" Africa. Besides, Europe, the Middle East, and Asia are all part of the same continent ;-). And judging the significance of an empire by physical size is a little narrow. Population is what matters, and in that respect, I'm pretty sure that Rome was behind India and China the whole way through (don't quote me on that, though).

1) Size does matter. A lot. Greece and Rome's sizes were what made their cultures have such a widespread impact.

2) Yeah, so China and India contain more people. Who, btw, don't buy Civilization games in particularly large quantities. Tought luck; plus, for all their billions of people, who has exported its culture more? India and China, or Europe?

At least, according to Western standards and Western history books ;-).

Given that this is a Western game... YES!

Pipsqueaks. Call me when they've been a world power for at least 2 centuries.

So we're to have no civs except Britain?

Call me when Mali has been a world power, period.

Call me when China has been a world power, period.

[Kuciwalker]

I see the sopist lives up to his name

[Aro]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Call me when China has been a world power, period.

Psst! Don't say it too loud...

Maybe you don't have to wait so much. China is huge, and is growing fast. Very fast.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Alexander01
As for South America, I think it tragic that the Incas could possibly be left out. Yes, Spain may have destroyed them, but they had a long run as the dominant power of a continent. They were destroyed after they had passed their prime, that is nothing to be ashamed of, Rome fits that mold after all. So, Spain should be dropped to insure the Incas a spot.

The man campaigns for the Incas and yet thinks that Mali is not important enough to be included in the game!! What claim do the Inca's have? They had a long run as the dominent power of the continent? So did the Malinese. Hell, they controlled the gold market of the entire EurAsian world for ages.

The Incas don't deserve to be in over the Malinese. They had less of an impact on the 'modern world' than Mali ever did. They provided Spain with gold.

And yes, Spain deserves to be in. They held a vast majority of the Americas and took a lot of the gold. They had a great influence on the "New World". There is a reason they speak Spanish.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Aro


Psst! Don't say it too loud...

Maybe you don't have to wait so much. China is huge, and is growing fast. Very fast.

Still, by his standard we'd have to wait until the 23rd century to include China in civ

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm pretty sure China qualified as a world power back in the Middle Kingdom days.

World power has never meant you can go all over the world, but that you are one of the strongest countries in the world at that time.

So Greece under Alexander, Rome, China in the Middle Kingdom, Arabs, Turks, English, Spanish, etc, were all world powers.

As Britannica Online mentions as a title of an article about Rome:

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=23916

History > Rome of antiquity > The city of world power

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I'm pretty sure China qualified as a world power back in the Middle Kingdom days.

Because China had such an enormous effect on the Americas...

World power has never meant you can go all over the world, but that you are one of the strongest countries in the world at that time.

How so? No matter how powerful you are, if you don't have much effect far away, you're just a regional power.

So Greece under Alexander, Rome, China in the Middle Kingdom, Arabs, Turks, English, Spanish, etc, were all world powers.

They were not.

[ArchdukeNewell]

Originally posted by Vince278


England sat on Siam for awhile.

How about Japan? They were influenced by some western nations but nobody ever dominated them.

Japan was occupied by the United States for pretty much the last 50 years. Ever since WWII. An American general (not even the highest ranking one) bossed around the Japanese Emperor and forced him to renounce his divinity.

[sophist]

Originally posted by Alexander01
And African civs measure in decades, so why again should they be added?

Didn't say they should be.

Originally posted by Alexander01
Physical size is narrow? What empire able to control a huge landmass has ever been insignificant on the global scene? As for population, what kind of population did Mali have? Indonesia has a quarter of a billion people and you don't see them exerting any influence. Look at Bangladesh for Pete's sake! Heavily populated; going nowhere.

That's a pretty short-sighted view. I didn't mean that population was the only thing that mattered, just that it mattered a lot more than dimensions. I mean, by that logic, you could say that the Turks occupied 3 continents and the Chinese only one and the Indians only a sub-continent, so Turks > Chinese > Indians.

Originally posted by Alexander01

And maps! Show me a map in existence that puts Egypt on any other continent than Africa.

I was talking about "things worth remembering" and "no lasting achievements." But you knew that and preferred to make a lame joke.

Originally posted by Alexander01
I take by your comments that you are not American. Well, it is all our fault that you aren't speaking German or Japanese right now, or Russian for that matter. Unless of course you are from one of these areas, and then I could see why you are a sore loser.

Wow, what a comment. No wonder other countries don't like us. Yes, I said "us." Maybe you should look past your knee-jerk chauvinism. Winning WWI and WWII sure was nice of us, not that we did it on our own. Those are pretty recent history, too. When you think about what history books 500 years from now will say, well, it's not so clear that the US will get a better treatment than, say, 15th century Poland. American power is already getting challenged by Chinese power. The US has been a world power for about 100 years, and unequivocally the world's most powerful country for about 20. America has a long way to go before we match Britain or Rome.

Originally posted by Alexander01
Honestly though, if for no other reason than say 70% or more of this game's intended audience is American, America will not be left out.

I see. So pandering to Americans is ok, but not pandering to people who are a little too focused on political correctness?

Originally posted by Alexander01
As for pipsqueaks, I'm sure that's what Carthage said about Rome at the beginning too.

Stories about David beating Goliath are exceptional because they are rare. Goliath usually wins. Or are you saying that Bangaladesh is going to eat America's lunch?

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Yes, these past 500 years.

Maybe Civ should just start in 1500, then. Forget all those ancients; they're old news. What have you done for me lately?

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

1) Size does matter. A lot. Greece and Rome's sizes were what made their cultures have such a widespread impact.

Really? Persia was pretty big. So was the Greco-Bactrian kingdom.

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
2) Yeah, so China and India contain more people. Who, btw, don't buy Civilization games in particularly large quantities. Tought luck; plus, for all their billions of people, who has exported its culture more? India and China, or Europe?

I think it's harder to tell than you think. Chinese and Indian cultures are so fully assimilated so you're not even aware of them. For example, Indian numerals, without which there would be no Western banking tradition. Besides, have you actually been to those places to know that our culture has been exported there?

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Call me when China has been a world power, period.

I would, but neither telephones nor either of us existed in 500BC. I could call you now, though; open your eyes and see what China is doing right now. They're going to be #1 in our lifetimes.