Mali Delenda Est

[ArchdukeNewell]

Originally posted by yin26
For the short-term, it will be collectives like the EU. Surely all of Europe can surpass the United States in whatever it wants, if it can work through its own huge problems. Later, it *will* be China. Money buys most anything, including Super Power status.

THE EU!!!??? What kind of drugs are you smoking? First off, have you seen their economy? Basket-case doesn't begin to describe it. Second, the state of their military! I mean, Canada could beat them! Their birthrate is far below replacement levels (ie. NEGATIVE!), so they try to mitigate that by allowing dangerous foreign nationals who want to kill them and take their land to immigrate into their heartlands!!!

I don't see how in the world the EU will ever surpass the US in the short run, or even the long run! They're not as strong as we are now, and they have negative potential. They were great in their day, but their day is OVER!!!

[Aro]

Originally posted by Alex
"America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between." - Oscar Wilde.

Lovely.

[yin26]

I don't expect anybody with a love of country to read one of my posts and say "Eureka! Yin has shown me the light!" If these concepts aren't clearn to you by now, maybe they will be later on, though I'm certain the same conclusions won't escape you before too many years longer.

Also, the urge to shoot the messenger is predictable: but resist it. It does you no good. A wise member of the last super power on Earth (at least till a new one replaces it ) will take very carefully any possible challengers to its status and decide how best to deal with them. But denial and shock are sure signs of impending trouble.

Finally, nobody should take me to mean that any one nation or groups of nations will run off into the sunset leaving the U.S. in a cloud of dust. The fact is that no matter how powerful any group, they are only a few sleepy/arrogant/ignorant decades away from slipping back downward. China, for example, will eventually have enormous piles of money to do most anything it wants...except perhaps stop a civil war if it can't manage to bring the masses into its fold of growing prosperity.

And this is the point: Nations must reinvent themselves at ever faster rates of change in order to stay responsive and in positions of earned respect and leadership. The U.S., in my opinion, has become bloated, arrogant and short-sighted. Of course, I think this is almost unavoidable once you become the leader. The reverse, unfortunately, is also unavoidable: The leader gets replaced, at least for a while.

Again, I don't ask you to like or believe what I'm saying: But just think on it long and hard as the years unfold.

[sophist]

China and India are getting their acts together. It's just a question of time, barring catastrophe. The biggest thing that could keep the US on top is a war between those two countries, though I'm hard-pressed to figure out how there could be a serious war without the US getting involved somehow (Taiwan or Central Asia being likely flash points). I'm not so confident of the EU. Their populations are getting progressively older, even more so than the United States.

[Xorbon]

Ummm...

So, how about that Mali? I hear there's a controversy surrounding its inclusion in Civ.

[ArchdukeNewell]

Originally posted by Xorbon
Ummm...

So, how about that Mali? I hear there's a controversy surrounding its inclusion in Civ.

Good point. This discussion has gone rather far afield. And unless someone wants to explain to me why the Malinese should be included when the Ottoman Empire is left out (a point that I have brought up many times and no one has addressed), I'm done with this conversation.

It has degenerated into a bevy of America-bashing that I frankly don't have time for. Those arguments are not worthy of response or rebuttal and if you want to discuss them, go make your own thread and don't hijack this one.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell
to Molly Bloom,

Obviously, you have no idea what the word euro-centric means.

To ArchdukeNewell


Obviously you have no idea that I studied the English language intensively at university.

Congratulations for making a patronising inaccurate assumption about my linguistic capabilities and simultaneously underestimating my knowledge of history too.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander01


Firstly, we're referring to Egypt itself, the "Black Lands of the Nile," the Old, Middle, and New Kingdoms, to get that straight. Second, the territorial expansionism of Thutmose III and Ramses II in the Levant does not change the fact that Egypt is in Africa, which is my point.

Nice try.

Contradicted by this statement:

Show me a map in existence that puts Egypt on any other continent than Africa.

Now I can add maps clearly showing Egypt in Asia in the time of Rameses II and Thutmose III. That is what you asked for, not maps showing that the kingdoms of Egypt were based in Asia.

I'm well aware they weren't. They were, however, for about a thousand years the only significant power on the planet, and on two continents at that.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell
unless someone wants to explain to me why the Malinese should be included when the Ottoman Empire is left out (a point that I have brought up many times and no one has addressed), I'm done with this conversation.

Imran told you the answer. Diversity. Civ4 already has a slew of European and middle-eastern Civs, while the rest of the world (especially Africa) is largely under-represented.

Your argument is that only the nations that used to be the most powerful ought to be in the game. Imran's argument (which is also my idea) is that the game should represent the human civilizations in their diversity.

I, for one, hope that the Ottomans will be featured in the first expansion pack, along with the Babylonians and the Koreans (and hopefully Ethiopia). I was very happy when the Otts were finally included in PtW. But I don't want the only spot dedicated to African Civs to be sacrificed for another Euro-middle eastern Civ.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell


Good point. This discussion has gone rather far afield. And unless someone wants to explain to me why the Malinese should be included when the Ottoman Empire is left out (a point that I have brought up many times and no one has addressed), I'm done with this conversation.

It has degenerated into a bevy of America-bashing that I frankly don't have time for. Those arguments are not worthy of response or rebuttal and if you want to discuss them, go make your own thread and don't hijack this one.

Please You can´t spew out a lot of pro-american propaganda and then flee with the tail between your legs when you get some opposition. There´s always someone here who will call you on your bull**** no matter your political stance.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander01


Holy Roman Empire
No. Even in the days of Charlemagne and Otto, the HRE was not ever Holy or Roman.

Right- it wasn't 'holy' because they it didn't have the conversion (forced or otherwise) to the Catholic faith as part of its raison d'etre.

One wonders why it spent so much time converting the pagan Saxons and Lombards, and destroying pagan sites of worship.

And it wasn't 'holy' because it didn't try to reinstitute a faith based system of education and law either.

And it didn't try to make Christianity the state religion.

And it wasn't 'roman' because it didn't try to restore the old Western Roman Empire and the status of the pope in Rome and unite Emperor with the state church which also acted as a civil service and to a degree the social services of the new 'roman' empire.


I'm sorry, but there are too many similarities between Charlemagne's empire and the Ottonian revival and the latter days of the Western Roman Empire.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell

Not a Wonder of the World: Malinese Ivory Mask - Seriously, people, who really thought that was a wonder of the world?

Gosh, the Europeans who when they first saw it couldn't believe that a supposedly 'primitive' people could produce such anatomically correct objects and therefore attributed it to lost Romans, Greeks or Egyptians.


I fail to see why a 'wonder of the world' has to be particularly large- the Antikythera Device certainly wasn't, and yet I'm fairly sure it constitutes a wonder, as does the first printing press in Asia, or indeed the discovery of the principles behind single point perspective.


Still, I'm sure the Sankore Mosque counts as a wonder in someone's world, even if not yours.

"The scholars of Timbuctoo yielded in nothing, to the saints in the sojourns in the foreign universities of Fez, Tunis, and Cairo. They astounded the most learned men of Islam by their erudition. That these Negroes were on a level with the Arabian savants is proved by the fact that they were installed as professors in Morocco and Egypt. In contrast to this, we find that Arabs were not always equal to the requirements of Sankore."

As a center of intellectual achievement, Timbuktu earned a place next to Cairo and other leading North African cities.


Dubois, Felix. Timbuctoo the Mysterious. (London: W. Heinemann, 1897), p. 285.

http://www.historychannel.com/classroom/unesco/timbuktu/goldenage.html

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell


I'm still waiting for someone to explain how Mali is greater than the Ottoman Empire.

Why would anyone do that ?


Two wrongs still don't make a right- in African arithmetic either.

The fact that a huge swathe of non-European peoples has consistently been overlooked by the makers of Civilization doesn't then justify leaving out a significant African civilization, just because you happen to know precious little about it or appreciate it- from its art to its architecture to its trading routes to its armed forces to its epic literature.

In 1988, the old Town of Djenné and its Great Mosque were named a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

Although the Great Mosque incorporates architectural elements found in mosques throughout the Islamic world, it reflects the aesthetics and materials used for centuries by the people of Djenné. Its use of local materials, such as mud and palm wood, its incorporation of traditional architectural styles, and its adaptation to the hot climate of West Africa are expressions of its elegant connection to the local environment. Such earthen architecture, which is found throughout Mali, can last for centuries if regularly maintained.

http://www.sacredsites.com/africa/mali/djenne.html

[AeonOfTime]

@sophist: The Roman Empire didn't dramatically collapse, nor did it decline and fall because of decadence or corruption. That's a myth, no doubt perpetrated by the Catholic Church in order to justify the vast temporal power they acquired in the Middle Ages. The Roman Empire fell over a long period of time for many complicated reasons.

If you are right, I can throw that part of my knowledge on the roman empire out the window. I learned the corruption part in school, so I guess I will go by the library and get a book on roman history to clarify things up a bit.

@Alexander01: The Aztecs conquered everyone else around them. The only reasons they lost to Spain = horses, guns, smallpox, allies turned against them.

What is that supposed to mean? That an 'unfair' loss does not count? You are making less and less sense.

@Alxander01: Yes, but if they don't have a proper military entity, they won't survive long. All I'm saying is that the military aspect is important! Why is it that when I say one thing, people assume I mean the opposite?

I agree that the military aspect is important, but it is only one of a civilization's defining factors among many. Focussing only on one aspect of a civilization is bound to lead to false conclusions. And I guess the fact that people assume you mean the opposite of what you write may be due to the fact that you express yours ideas somewhat confusingly

@Alexander01: Africa is not the cradle of civilization. Mesopotamia is the cradle of civilization. // @ArchdukeNewell: Africa is not the freaking cradle of civilization!!!

I have no problem admitting that I am not very well versed in history, so get off your condescent horses and please tell me why mesopotamia is the cradle of civilization and not africa

@ArchdukeNewell: The Visigoths destroyed Rome, does that mean Rome shouldn't be included? The point is, they were past their prime

You can't be serious - so it doesn't suffice to judge a civilization only on the military aspect, now there are even scoring rules??

@Imran Siddiqui: I said it would nice to have a builder civ and not ALL the civs be militaristic.

I could not agree more

@ArchdukeNewell: I don't see how in the world the EU will ever surpass the US in the short run, or even the long run! They're not as strong as we are now, and they have negative potential. They were great in their day, but their day is OVER!!!

Hmmmm.. do I smell fear? Jokes aside, the EU does have a lot of problems - but so far it has proven to be worthwile. The countries making up the EU would have a tough job of competing on their own (on a commercial level, mind you) against the other great nations like the US or rising China. And honestly, I don't see the EU as an instance to surpass anyone, but as a means to survive in the future. What Yin26 said goes in the same direction:

@yin26: Nations must reinvent themselves at ever faster rates of change in order to stay responsive and in positions of earned respect and leadership.

Well said. It is nice to see that finally, some countries have learned that leadership is not the ultimate goal, but their survival and the welfare of their people.

@MollyBloom: I'm sure the Sankore Mosque counts as a wonder in someone's world, even if not yours. // the old Town of Djenné and its Great Mosque were named a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

Thanks for the info! I think we can draw a conclusion at this point: the Mali definitely deserve their place in Civ, and from what I read in this thread they are not only welcome by many, they also have their accomplishments to stand for it. I think what Alexander01 was trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong - no, belay that, I know you would anyway ) is that compared to the other great civs in the game they are a rather small civilization. While that may be true, it is not less true that they were a civilization (no matter how small) and that as such, they have always had their place in the game as many others still do.

[Alexander I]

And now I understand why ArchdukeNewell left.

This topic has been half-hijacked by people who don't listen to reason. All of this anti-America stuff belongs in an "America Delenda Est" thread.

While I appreciate the point of view of the pro-Mali side, I do not respond well to such belligerence and utter disregard for the opinions of others.

You've accused me of not listening to your arguments. While I have heard every word you've said, all of my arguments have been ignored and/or shouted down with anti-American/European propagandic drivel. You've still not convinced me of Mali's worthiness, because rather than responding to my thoughts, you've simply dismissed them.

And now for my closing statements:

Egypt is in Africa. Every time anyone tries to argue to the contrary, they look a little more foolish.

The Fertile Crescent is the Cradle of Civilization because that's where the oldest civilizations in the world developed (ie. Sumer). The Fertile Crescent consists of Mesopotamia, Canaan and the Levant. That includes Catal Huyuk and Jericho, the oldest cities on Earth.

But neither of those points is even what this thread was about.

"Diversity" is a cushy way of saying "politically correct." My point has been that the inclusion of civs in Civ4 should be based on merit alone, not on race, creed, or color. While I have been willing to hear out the reasoning for Mali's inclusion among the world greats, the explanation has been unsatisfactory.

Ivory masks and mud huts do not Wonders of the World make. I actually wanted to gain a greater knowledge of Malinese wonders that I supposed I might be ignorant of, but the information provided is still found wanting. If there is further proof to explain why Mali is not a second-rate civ, then by all means provide it, but as yet everything that has been said has only:

1. Confirmed my previous opinion of Mali.
2. Lessened my respect for certain members of this forum who do not know how to converse respectfully without using profanity, insults, or epithets of contempt every other word.

Mali is definitely a civilization and no one here has ever tried to say they are not. The entire premise of this thread has been to express the opinion that their accomplishments, though significant, are not on the same level as cultures such as Babylon, China, Persia, India, Egypt, or, yes, the Ottoman Empire. This premise was never an anti-African one, though many have seemed to have read that into my statements. Neither was it a Pro-European or American thread.

Legitimate world civs will not be included in the initial version of Civ4 because of the inclusion of Mali (ie. Babylon, Ottomans, etc.). Go ahead and call me a bad person if that makes you feel better. Your infantile retorts neither hurt my feelings nor strengthen your arguments.

I find it absolutely disgusting that my attempts at reasonable conversation have been met with belligerence, arrogance, condescension and outright hostility. Perhaps some of the fault is mine, I don't know, but I do not appreciate this behavior.

The "logic" of many of the arguments I've heard here has been tenuous at best. Example: "You're wrong because Wikipedia says so." (Not mentioning that they most likely wrote said Wikipedia article.) "You're wrong and/or are a bad person because I disagree with you."

What the issue really comes down to is what each individual's criteria for the inclusion of a civ is, whether the inclusion of a civ should be based on its merit or on diversity. The ultimate result of inclusion on diversity is Call to Power, including such greats as the Polynesians, Jamaicans, Welsh, and "North Americans." As yet, a Civ game has not been created based solely on merit, as all previous Sid Meier civ games have included the likes of the Zulus, Sioux, and Iroquois. Why? For diversity. Another name for this principle is Political Correctness.

If you're convinced that Civ should be based on diversity and I'm convinced that it should be based on merit, then neither one of us will ever change our minds, and we'll just continue to argue. Thus, I point out that we have entirely different paradigms affecting our evaluations of this issue.

You're probably now going to accuse me of cowardice for not responding to every last detail of your sordid assaults on America. This is not because I don't have responses but because responding to your eternal carping is not worth the time it would take to post.

Come back and post again when you're ready to have a civil and cordial discussion. Thank you for your time, and apologies to those of you reading this who have not contributed to the poor behavior referred to above.

- Alexander01

Moreover, Mali ought to be destroyed. The End.