Catholic Church has skeptic arrested for explaining miracle

[Kidicious]

Yay, it's official - I'm not a troll!

Do you mind reminding us of the last time that you engaged someone in serious discussion?

[Ben Kenobi]

Is this because you'll die while being content in knowing that you did your best to leave the world a better place than you found it, or is this because you'll be glad to be put out of your misery? If it's the latter then I promise to put you on ignore and never trouble you again, because that's one of the most depressing things I've ever heard.

Couple things here.

1, please don't put me on ignore. Socrates' quote about 'unexamined life'. I might not agree with you, but I don't put anybody on ignore because I disagree with them. I feel very strongly that I should examine what I believe.

2, It has very little to do with Apolyton.

3, Johnny Cash once spoke of some of his visions of Heaven and how beautiful it is and was to him. He said much the same - that he wasn't afraid of death or heaven - because that would mean no more suffering for him here on this earth. I can't say that I've had visions of the same, but everything I have heard of heaven makes me long to be there and not here.

4, I'm not very content with what I've accomplished with my life so far. There's so much that I've wanted to do that I've not been able to do. So I'm very critical of what I've done in my life so far. I feel that I have let down many folks who have counted on me.

5, There's other stuff, that I really don't want to talk about here... it makes me very pessimistic for the future.

[Ben Kenobi]

While it shall be renewed, I hate to tell you this... but we're kind of staying here (or at least being resurrected here at & after the final judgement) - its not exactly heaven as the New Jerusalem comes from heaven to Earth (though at this point heaven & earth appear to become one again Eden-like).

No more suffering,

[Imran Siddiqui]

Though aren't we blessed so that we can bless others? Aren't we supposed to bring the love of God to everyone? Jesus, of course, didn't promise we wouldn't suffer, but He stated He would be here in our sufferings so that we may handle them and thus be there for others.

[loinburger]

1, please don't put me on ignore. Socrates' quote about 'unexamined life'. I might not agree with you, but I don't put anybody on ignore because I disagree with them. I feel very strongly that I should examine what I believe.

I'm not putting you on ignore to punish you or anything like that, I'm putting you on ignore because it is now detrimental to read your posts. Before I could think "BK has some stupid/silly/weird beliefs," but I can't think that any longer - it has now become "BK has a sad life," and that's depressing.

[loinburger]

Look, I don't want to tell you how to live your life, because what the **** do I know. But what has helped me is a. being closer to family (I used to live several states away my parents and from my brother/sister-in-law/nieces, but I now live within a half hour of all of them - in fact, my youngest niece has recently upgraded me from "Gunkle" to "Uncle") and b. volunteer work (I repair computers, and am also in the Big Brothers/Big Sisters program, obviously as a Big Brother and not as a Big Sister). I've also got a good job that pays well, but that's just gravy - I had a good job that paid well back when I lived a thousand miles from my family and wasn't doing any volunteer work, and it didn't make me happy then and it wouldn't make me happy now. Though it's nice that I'll be able to help my "Little Brother" and my nieces through college.

[Ben Kenobi]

Look, I don't want to tell you how to live your life, because what the **** do I know. But what has helped me is a. being closer to family (I used to live several states away my parents and from my brother/sister-in-law/nieces, but I now live within a half hour of all of them - in fact, my youngest niece has recently upgraded me from "Gunkle" to "Uncle") and b. volunteer work (I repair computers, and am also in the Big Brothers/Big Sisters program, obviously as a Big Brother and not as a Big Sister). I've also got a good job that pays well, but that's just gravy - I had a good job that paid well back when I lived a thousand miles from my family and wasn't doing any volunteer work, and it didn't make me happy then and it wouldn't make me happy now. Though it's nice that I'll be able to help my "Little Brother" and my nieces through college.

Am I the sort to rubbish your suggestions made out of kindness? No, not at all. Thank you for taking the time do so.

My family and I have an, eh, complicated relationship. I just lost my favourite of all of them - she just passed on few weeks ago, my nana. I was very unhappy when I lived with them, and I was much happier when I was away. So I live away.

I did do that for years, looking after them when my father passed on, but they encouraged me to leave and go away and take my shot at making my life here.

I really do like it here in Texas - but as I said to Elok - it is a struggle at times to build a totally new life away from where you are.

I do do a fair amount of church volunteer stuff - both through the one I attend just down the road and the one I work for - what I really need to work on is the employment angle. I'm hoping to finally get my break this year when I apply for full- time positions.

Thank you for caring, loinburger, and please - don't 'ignore me because I'm fragile'.

Seriously, I have a few berzerk buttons, and that's probably the biggest of all of them! Just treat me as you always have and it'll be fine.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Sorry to hear about your nana

[loinburger]

Okay, cool. It's all well and good to dislike/disagree with/loathe your ideas/beliefs, but it goes out of my comfort zone once I start equating "belief I disagree with" to "sad life." It sounds like your life isn't ideal (whose is?) but that you're in the process of actively improving it. I was under the impression that you'd given up, which is what would have made you the first person on my ignore list.

[Ben Kenobi]

Though aren't we blessed so that we can bless others? Aren't we supposed to bring the love of God to everyone? Jesus, of course, didn't promise we wouldn't suffer, but He stated He would be here in our sufferings so that we may handle them and thus be there for others.

Oh sure. I have been blessed by God in many ways. However, God is not the world. I'm not going to ascribe the good that comes from God to the world, which doesn't love me and doesn't care. You were an atheist before but you loved Rousseau - me I liked Neitzsche and Hobbes, very, very different perspective. I don't do the happy fun shining lollipop thingy. It's right there in my contract.

You need someone to get you out of a tight spot - hell, I'm your man. I'll be there for you when the other folks say they are 'too busy'. etc. But I don't do perky.

[Imran Siddiqui]

God isn't the world (I'm no pantheist), but God's Creation is the world, albeit in a fallen state. God made Creation and He made it good. And He works through us to make it a little bit better, to bring a little bit of His Kingdom here, until Jesus finishes the job.

I liked Nietszche as well, FWIW.

[Elok]

How about panentheism? Does that do anything for you?

[Ben Kenobi]

It sounds like your life isn't ideal (whose is?) but that you're in the process of actively improving it. I was under the impression that you'd given up, which is what would have made you the first person on my ignore list.

Right, that's because Ben Kenobi is known for giving up.

Look, you want to understand me - read Kierkegaard. Just because I think the world sucks doesn't absolve me from doing what I can to make it better. Just because I want to go to heaven I have to be content with understanding that I will go when God is ready, not me.

Or just read this.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ghtInSourArmor

Or this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counselor_(role_variant)

There's a reason I picked this name, after all.

[Ben Kenobi]

I liked Nietszche as well, FWIW.

Yeah, ok. I was under the impression that you believed that people were intrinsically good. If I'm wrong about that, correct me please.

[Imran Siddiqui]

How about panentheism? Does that do anything for you?

I'm actually somewhat of a fan of panentheism. God is distinct, but He is in all things and all people.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, ok. I was under the impression that you believed that people were intrinsically good. If I'm wrong about that, correct me please.

As with most things, my views were a bit more nuanced - people have bits of intrinsic good and intrinstic bad within them (mostly due to evolutionary impulses - some are pro-selfish and some are pro-group).

Nowadays, I have... well, somewhat similar views. We are all made good and perfect by God, but also have sinned against God and thereby turned against him. So while are natures are self-interested and sinful, we still have that divine spark inside of us. & sometimes it leads us even before we've come to God. So I kind of reject the "Total Depravity" view of human nature.

[Ben Kenobi]

So I kind of reject the "Total Depravity" view of human nature.

Yeah, interesting that you're the protestant here. Catholicism rejects Calvin's theories on predestination (going so far as to argue the opposite, that many who are outside the Church will be saved, and essentially we have no way of knowing that anyone is saved), but they teach the same thing as Calvin on human nature. That's why we have confession because we are sinners in need of redemption, and we need help keeping the Commandments. I guess it's less of a big deal for us - you sinned - go to confession, work it out with God and don't do it again.

I'm very much an Augustianian, for anyone who knows what that means. This doctrine originates from him.

I'm also an Arminian, except for the fact that I believe that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was efficacious for everyone, including non believers. I believe divine grace can be resisted.

This is a rather interesting discussion, it's rare that I get to talk about theology that hasn't changed for me since my conversion. I've spend so much time on the stuff that did change...

[DinoDoc]

I'm actually somewhat of a fan of panentheism. God is distinct, but He is in all things and all people.

God is a Midichlorian?

[Ben Kenobi]

The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

[-Jrabbit]

- me I liked Calvin and Hobbes, very, very different perspective.

Fixed.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, interesting that you're the protestant here. Catholicism rejects Calvin's theories on predestination (going so far as to argue the opposite, that many who are outside the Church will be saved, and essentially we have no way of knowing that anyone is saved), but they teach the same thing as Calvin on human nature. That's why we have confession because we are sinners in need of redemption, and we need help keeping the Commandments. I guess it's less of a big deal for us - you sinned - go to confession, work it out with God and don't do it again.

I'm very much an Augustianian, for anyone who knows what that means. This doctrine originates from him.

I'm also an Arminian, except for the fact that I believe that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was efficacious for everyone, including non believers. I believe divine grace can be resisted.

This is a rather interesting discussion, it's rare that I get to talk about theology that hasn't changed for me since my conversion. I've spend so much time on the stuff that did change...

Hey, Arminius was a Protestant as well!!! There is too much of a tendancy (IMO) to have Calvinist teaching (or "Reformed") stand in for all of Protestantism. When a massive chunk of Protestantism is against predestination (Anglicanism, Methodism, Pentecostalism, Baptists, etc). Also Arminius (or at least Arminianism) does teach that Christ's sacrifice was for everyone and grace may be resisted.

I believe we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but my views of "original sin" are ever evolving. I'm not sure I'm with either Augustine or Calvin on it, but I haven't necessarily delved super deeply on it.

[Ben Kenobi]

to have Calvinist teaching (or "Reformed") stand in for all of Protestantism.

Bearing in mind that Arminius was Dutch Reformed as well. Between Zwingli, Arminius and Calvin, the Reformed folks did most of the heavy lifting. Mennonites borrow very heavily from Arminius and Zwingli, depending on the doctrine.

I believe we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but my views of "original sin" are ever evolving. I'm not sure I'm with either Augustine or Calvin on it, but I haven't necessarily delved super deeply on it.

It's part of what lead me to Catholicism. Discussions of original sin lead me to a Catholic understanding of Mary, and away from Protestantism.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Between Zwingli, Arminius and Calvin, the Reformed folks did most of the heavy lifting.

Tut tut. Let us not forget Luther and Melanchthon.

[Ben Kenobi]

True, Melanchthon is a rarity. He wasn't one of ours. More protestants should know and study him. He always upheld the Real Presence.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I know y'all aren't fond of Luther - but he was foremost on that one . He also had far more respect for the Virgin Mary than a lot of the Protestants who came after him.

[Ben Kenobi]

I know y'all aren't fond of Luther - but he was foremost on that one . He also had far more respect for the Virgin Mary than a lot of the Protestants who came after him.

Yeah, and he also had anabaptists burned at stake. My animosity towards Luther has nothing to do with Catholicism.

[Kidicious]

Yeah, interesting that you're the protestant here. Catholicism rejects Calvin's theories on predestination (going so far as to argue the opposite, that many who are outside the Church will be saved, and essentially we have no way of knowing that anyone is saved), but they teach the same thing as Calvin on human nature. That's why we have confession because we are sinners in need of redemption, and we need help keeping the Commandments. I guess it's less of a big deal for us - you sinned - go to confession, work it out with God and don't do it again.

I'm very much an Augustianian, for anyone who knows what that means. This doctrine originates from him.

I'm also an Arminian, except for the fact that I believe that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was efficacious for everyone, including non believers. I believe divine grace can be resisted.

This is a rather interesting discussion, it's rare that I get to talk about theology that hasn't changed for me since my conversion. I've spend so much time on the stuff that did change...

In post #163 you said that if anyone wanted to know you they should read Kierkegaard. In this post you seem to agree with Imran that humans are only different from God by degree, not qualitatively different from God as Kierkegaard said we are. What should we read in Kierkegaard that tells us about you?

[Ben Kenobi]

In post #163 you said that if anyone wanted to know you they should read Kierkegaard. In this post you seem to agree with Imran that humans are only different from God by degree, not qualitatively different from God as Kierkegaard said we are. What should we read in Kierkegaard that tells us about you?

No, I believe that we are qualitatively different from God. Same as Soren. Check your inbox.

[Kidicious]

No, I believe that we are qualitatively different from God. Same as Soren. Check your inbox.

Got it. Have you read The Sickness Unto Death by Kierkegaard? He believed that anxiety preceded the origianal sin, and that in each human being anxiety comes before sin. And that human beings sin not because Adam sinned, but because they have anxiety.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Do you mean The Concept of Anxiety rather?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Concept_of_Anxiety

And where do you get the silly idea that I think we are different from God merely from degrees? God is not human, nor does He likely resemble any of us (image of God meaning that we are to mirror God's will and love, not look exactly like Him).