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[StepNRazor]

Seppel

Presidents.
I agree I dont think a leader is a big issue at this point.
We have some good candidates active right now, (Z, GrayLord, JB, PK), as well as others we can contact like in cybers case. Bu I don't think thats a big issue right now, when the time comes for one we will have no problem getting one.

Constitution.
Wait.
I would like to se waiting allowed for only defence fireing weapons, this means for fireing at misssles, fighters bomber, and shuttles. So a ship must fire all weapons targeting as offensive during his init phase but may opt to select wait on fireing his defensive targeting weapons. I am useing the term pd in a general stroke normal fireing weapons may also be place on wait if the sole and only purpose would be to fire at swarms of missle. I think this would increase game play in both time and avoid consective double hit at the end of a turn and the begining of a turn.
AI.
I think spying on AI falls into the same catagory as capturing AI. If you were not the guy that forced the AI out or where not instremental in doing so you should not be allowed to spy.

I did a search for elo and came up with a some psudo code, http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/Ratings.pseudo-code , I dont think this is going to be to big a hurtle.

Team size I had thought 2 or three players per team as well, until teams start filling up more and maybee some load balanceing to make things even. With 2 player you have minimun to play a 2v2, with three a 2v2 and a 4way could be supported at the same time.

1v1 seems to be working just fine as it is.

[Brutalisk]

You know, i believe you are going about this the wrong way Step.

Don't chase after people trying to get a "president". It's clear that you took the first step and seem to have the energy and commitment to see it through, so there need not be some kind of "figure" at the helm.

People have already responded positively to your initiative.

Now, if you feel you can't or don't want to pull it off on your own, then just seek the help of someone you can work with to help you out.

[Gusset]

Originally posted by StepNRazor
Constitution.
Wait.
I would like to se waiting allowed for only defence fireing weapons, this means for fireing at misssles, fighters bomber, and shuttles. So a ship must fire all weapons targeting as offensive during his init phase but may opt to select wait on fireing his defensive targeting weapons. I am useing the term pd in a general stroke normal fireing weapons may also be place on wait if the sole and only purpose would be to fire at swarms of missle. I think this would increase game play in both time and avoid consective double hit at the end of a turn and the begining of a turn.

Step,

While I think it's possible that the "wait" rules could be improved, I don't have huge problems with the way it is now. The nice thing about the current agreed setup is that it's pretty easy to abide by...it's about as black-and-white as you can get, and there's no room for arguing. Your suggestion about pd-firing only after the first opportunity could be violated by an "accidental" click of the mouse.

However it ends up, I think each ship should have the option to wait at least once per round. The reason is that a player may want their ships to move and/or fire in a specific order to maximize weapon effectiveness. Forcing a player to "fire now or not at all this round" could prevent it. The most obvious example that comes to mind is if there are escort ships. A common strategy is to move the escorts first so they can use their weapons to reduce missile clouds before the "main body" ships move; however if the escorts don't get initiative first, this would be prevented.

Just a couple of thoughts to consider.

It's really great to see the response you've generated here, Step. I hope the group can sustain the enthusiasm.

Long live the Trilarian empire!

-Gusset

[Dmitry_Bulrathy]

I glad to join &

I will take Bulrathi side

[siron]

@ brutal

I dont see anything in Steps post that justifies your:

"Don't chase after people trying to get a "president"."

Actually he says that it is no big issue right now.

@ step

once again. I am not seppel.

wait: I have to think about your wait-proposal but so far I think it is no big improvement.

AI: I like your proposal there.

ELO: I thought to change the calculation slightly to award fighting in a lost position.

the expected score is calculated as usual with these elo ratings.
winner in a 4way gets 3 points
2nd best 2 points
3rd best 1 point.
4th gets 0 points.

But the winner has now the option to add 0.5 points to the 3rd or 4th. (Or the 3rd, 4th or 5th in a 5way)

(The new elo score is then again based on difference between actual and expected score.)

Of course we would have an slightly inflation of the elo ratings.....but I hate these early bailers....and I hope this is an approriate solution.

@ gusset

"I don't have huge problems with the way it is now."

the wait rule is ok with 2 players or in a fast 2v2. but in a 4+way it can be quite disturbing. especially when there are the waits....just to see if the defender also waits...like db explained here: http://www.masteroforion2.com/dirt-bag/waiting.htm

[Brutalisk]

The battles are crucial, so that part needs to be right. Often the battle is not determined by technology or size of fleet (although those two attributes don't hurt), but rather player tactics. So we should put a lot of weight on keeping that process fair and transparent.

Plus, some players - without saying any names right now - did cheat with the one wait rule (they waited longer than one turn and claimed it was nothing), turning the tide of war in their favour. One of the things that has put me off from time to time in the kali games.

As for the president thing, I noticed from Step's tone of the message bud, that he simply puts it on the backburner for the time being. What I disagreed with there is the need for such an action in the first place.

If something dodgy does happen or someone needs to complain about something perhaps a committee of three people could be appointed or the league organiser(s) could be the ones deciding what action would need to be taken if any.

[StepNRazor]

Wait:
I realy dont think people are going to play with that much desperation as to have continued accidenmtal missl clicks at targeting misssles, fighter, shuttles.

This would be a big time save and would eliminate a very cheesy tactic of getting in successive end of a turn followed by a bigging of a turn fire, (almost like haveing fast missle racks for free or a doulbe beamn fire tech for 1st round). get the tech not the tactic =)

Sometimes missclicks do happen, untill recently I was playing with a tore up mouse, but in those situations I think the error clicks balance out.

ELO
Siron, yay I did it =)
That order of distribution looks good, but maybee raise the values by a factor of 5 or 10. this would allow for some inbtween amount of points for some unforseen reassons to be awardered at some later point in time if they should be deemed viable.
so maybbe something like this.
winner in a 4way gets 30 points
2nd best 20 points
3rd best 10 point.
4th gets 0 points.
as for 4th getting 0.

As for exapmle of some suplemetary points.
I think 4th should get from 1-5 points perhaps if he stuck it out and played a doomed position, maps can be cruel.

Each person showing up for a game should get a point for his race it might encourage more participation.

C&C, I allways liked that term on babalon 5 heeh.
anyway I'm sure we will have some command and control and I prefere the committie approach 3-5 perhaps anyeway maybee that would be anarchy dunno we cross it when we get there.
As for punishmesnts, well I dont think we need to gouge anyone eyes out or put there feet to the fire. but ecomonic sanctions might be useful.
Perhaps inpose a ban on that play, like no useing Tol for 2 weeks, or aqua, or some similar thing, I dont think banning something like you can't kill any monsters in your next n games should be used. I dont know maybee it should but I'm sure there are enough creative people in this comminity to come up with some reasonalble punishment that wont alienate the offender and influence him to quit.

[Gusset]

re: a president/leader, I'm of the belief that in most (all?)sorts of group undertakings, there needs to be someone at the top helping to pull things together, because a democracy is actually a poor way of making decisions at the detail level. Given the discussion of this thread, I see two choices: 1) go with the existing league constitution as it currently stands, or 2) appoint/elect/whatever SOMEONE to head up some sort of process to enact whatever changes are necessary.

Enacting any change or new stuff without a leader or administrator to drive it is folly, especially in a group as diverse as this.

-Gusset

[StepNRazor]

I think the constitution is pretty dern good.
Maybee it's needs an amendment maybee it doesn't thats what we try and figure out.

Wait policy could be defered to a setting opion as well, kinda wh's in or out wait on for any or wait on only for def.
It would be prudent to test out these types of setting before implementing anything heeh.

I kinda prefer the 3 or 5 leader approach why humans are to dern emoptional. In a one ldr system the leader may be direct;y involved and have a "heated" point of view. where as if ther where another 2 or another 4 listening to some complaint or decesion makeing a more evenly tempered decesion may come about. This is not a mojority rules but a corum decides principal. but hey thats just my point of view also. perhaps a single persons ability to quickly cut through red tape and address issues and such would be prefered.

[Gusset]

Originally posted by StepNRazor
Wait:
I realy dont think people are going to play with that much desperation as to have continued accidenmtal missl clicks at targeting misssles, fighter, shuttles.

This would be a big time save and would eliminate a very cheesy tactic of getting in successive end of a turn followed by a bigging of a turn fire, (almost like haveing fast missle racks for free or a doulbe beamn fire tech for 1st round). get the tech not the tactic =)

While we all hate being victimized by such a thing, I don't think it's quite so simple.

"Fire as soon as you can or not at all" will go a little bit toward removing the benefit or superior battle tech. Production races already have a built in edge in this game, especially with some of the game settings we commonly use.

If we're going to change the "wait" rule to eliminate the scenario you describe, I hope we can find a way to preserve the benefits of tech superiority at the same time. One possibility, as I've mentioned, might be a "one wait per ship per round" limit. The problem then becomes enforcement and tracking it, especially in a battle involving many ships.

-Gusset

[Gusset]

Originally posted by StepNRazor
Wait policy could be defered to a setting opion as well, kinda wh's in or out wait on for any or wait on only for def.
It would be prudent to test out these types of setting before implementing anything heeh.

Excellent suggestions, I would back this 100%.

-Gusset

[Brutalisk]

Step: how about your current proposed ELO score

30/20/10/0 and then +5 to every player that stuck it out until the end, (including the winner)

Thus: 35/25/15/5


OR

It starts as 25/15/5/0 and you +5 to every person that sticks until the end. Effectively #1 and #2 get 30 and 20 always by default, while 3rd and 4th will get 10/5 or 5/0 depending whether they fight until the end or not.

[StepNRazor]

I was thinking of the points to be incluse for winners.
The exact ammounts are as yet undetermined.
I was just hopeing for an increased ammount in points award so some mionor points could be assigned , and a place holder for some additional points for other reason yet to be encountered arrived there would be a place for these to be added that would not detract to much from the game winners.

Siron is working on doing some test generations of an ELO score system based on the GO game. He has a good plan that looks like a very good approach for calculating scores.

[seb79]

i take mrrshan plz

[StepNRazor]

Elerians, Mrrshan teams are full.

Elerians: Step Zealot seppel
Mrrshan: alex d jb-bigkat seb
Sakkra: Kutuzov
Silicoids: siron Giant
Trilarians: Gusset
Bulrathi: Dmitry
Brutalisk

when all te races fill or the we can start adding more player in full races, also there might be a little shifting of power players ariround to balance the teams.