Society VII: Resurrection

[DarkCloud]

Thank you everyone for playing. I hope you enjoyed the game. I hope we can play again in a few weeks.

I'll be willing to GM again... but if someone thinks they can do it better, I fully understand.

I really think that EVENTUALLY my program will be debugged- part of the problem was some unclear/contradictory rules. After that, it will be very easy to run this.

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Further explanation: Theben won because his society constructed 7 wonders of the world.

[DarkCloud]

What about this rule:

* That player's action is negated for the turn. Should two players send spies at each other, regardless of phase targeted, neither spy gets through and both societies proceed as normal.

Should we get rid of this rule?

0. Revolutions are completed in 0. phase.

But then we can't 1/2 tax during the revolt turn? I think the revolutions are not complete until the next turn- therefore they are complete in Phase 7.

1. Spies aren't revealed who they're from, unless caught by defense or by mutual spying. Spied nation can treat as DoW, and attack all cities next turn.

good change.

2. Trade not available until tech 3, since earlier caravans wouldn't yield profit anyway. Payout from other civs received in tax phase, making this portion of trade immune to spying, but maybe subject to 1/2 taxes during revolt?

I don't see any need to limit trade before it gives profit.

4. Foreign aid armies formula:
armies received= armies sent*(ST/RT)
ST=sender tech
RT=receiver tech

So that a low tech nation can't ally with a high tech civ and buy the armies for the high tech nation. The idea is that the low tech armies fight as a % of the high tech army, and the high tech ones count as more than 1 army of the low tech nation.

Sorry, this seems too complicated.

Do we want to keep 1/2 taxation? There's some strategic decisions involved in timing revolutions, but the 1/2 has been a pain for the GM.

I think it could work. Part of the problem was that I forgot to do it time and time again.

Also I would like defensive spies to stop more than 1 attacking spy, perhaps 2 would be better... it would give civs facing more than 1 opponent a fighting chance.

That would be a good idea. What does everyone else think?

When spies sabotage, you lose all your money in that phase (it's been assumed, I see no rule). But if you lose a gamble on wonder building you get all your money back. I would propose that in both cases you get back only 1/2.

? I think all the money should be lost, including money spent on a wonder that is sabotaged... Hm. Taking away 1/2 money on wonder building for failed wonders does seem to be a good idea- what do people think?

Should tech cost calcs go by initial # of players, or should they change as players are eliminated?

I say initial number. It's easier to code.

Army disbanding: I propose a change in that player loses 1/2 of army they'd normally lose, per turn, until cost< income. The other 1/2 cannot attack next turn and can only defend.

I'm not sure I understand?
Can you write this as a rule format, really clear?

SDI should cost more, b/c they survive turn to turn while nukes are a 1 shot deal. I propose 750 cost, and up spaceship costs also ~1500-2000.

I don't think spaceship costs should be upped. a space victory is unlikely right now. As for SDI cost more, I think that might be good. What do people think?

Do Jihad and NRA cancel each other? Or does Jihad override NRA?

They cancel each other. That's the fair solution.

New question

3E.) Rehabilitating Cities


Usually conquered cities do not contribute to taxes for that turn. If you have a specific wonder, these cities can be rehabilitated in the same turn they are captured.

Is a rule (wasn't fully written out- I elaborated just now) but I don't see under what circumstances cities can be rehabbed for free? Maybe add that to one of the wonders? Colosseum?

Cities should be easier to defend, IMO. maybe:
DC = defender's number of cities/2

Hmm... I don't think that's totally necessary?

Thanks for the suggestions. I incorporated the obvious ones into a revised rules that I also cleaned up a bit to make prettier. The others are still open for discussion... what do people think?

Thanks Theben.

[MJW]

Originally posted by Theben

I think that this is the first "real" culture win ever.

[DarkCloud]

Second in a row... but perhaps the first one due to building all 7!

Theben's cash bonuses really helped.
Jonny could have given him a run for his money if he hadn't gotten ganked.

Society Scoreboard:

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=3359834#post3359834

This game ended on Turn 10, I believe?

[MJW]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Second in a row... but perhaps the first one due to building all 7!

Theben's cash bonuses really helped.
Jonny could have given him a run for his money if he hadn't gotten ganked.

Society Scoreboard:

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=3359834#post3359834

This game ended on Turn 10, I believe?

I think it is 8 turns. 8 total kiras but there where 2 in a single turn. The first turn had no kira. 8-1+1 = 8 turns

[Theben]

Should two players send spies at each other, regardless of phase targeted, neither spy gets through and both societies proceed as normal.

Seeing as you allowed both MJW and Sparrow to get spies thru on the final turn, I'd say it's fate. Go for it.

0. Revolutions are completed in 0. phase.

Whether at the end of phase 7 or the start of phase 0 (next turn), I'd just like it listed for reference.

Spies aren't revealed who they're from, unless caught by defense or by mutual spying. Spied nation can treat as DoW, and attack all cities next turn.

Seconded (or firsted?).

Trade not available until tech 3, since earlier caravans wouldn't yield profit anyway. Payout from other civs received in tax phase, making this portion of trade immune to spying, but maybe subject to 1/2 taxes during revolt?

Just so new players don't do it by accident.

Foreign aid armies formula:
armies received= armies sent*(ST/RT)
ST=sender tech
RT=receiver tech

How is this complicated? If the sending nation has tech 5, and the receiving nation has tech 10, then A=B*(5/10), or 1/2 the armies.
I actually felt a little guilty when I sent my armies to Sparrow and said he should concentrate on technology. While the real reason was to get Espionage, I saw how easily this could be abused.

Do we want to keep 1/2 taxation? There's some strategic decisions involved in timing revolutions, but the 1/2 has been a pain for the GM.

Actually I don't care, but Spaced said something about it being unfair when compared to civ... there aren't as many turns in Society.

Also I would like defensive spies to stop more than 1 attacking spy, perhaps 2 would be better... it would give civs facing more than 1 opponent a fighting chance.

The other idea I thought about would be to allow every civ to have 1 free defensive espionage phase/turn (they don't accumulate, use 'em or lose 'em) plus the normal spy, after Espionage tech. I prefer the former, but at least one of the 2 IMHO would be good.

When spies sabotage, you lose all your money in that phase (it's been assumed, I see no rule). But if you lose a gamble on wonder building you get all your money back. I would propose that in both cases you get back only 1/2.

I can see that might be obnoxious to GM... but I think part of a bid for wonders should be lost. Not that important, tho.

Should tech cost calcs go by initial # of players, or should they change as players are eliminated?

Again, no real preference. If it makes it easier on the GM to go by initial players, keep it.

Army disbanding: I propose a change in that player loses 1/2 of army they'd normally lose, per turn, until cost< income. The other 1/2 cannot attack next turn and can only defend.

Most players spend all their money every turn. I suppose Jonny's example could serve as a warning against that. Basically (sans formula) if a player, based on current formula, was going to lose 50 armies due to lack of income, he'd instead lose 25, and the other 25 would be limited to defense only the next turn. IF the same situation persisted on the following turn, he'd lose 13, and the remaining 12 could only defend.

SDI should cost more, b/c they survive turn to turn while nukes are a 1 shot deal. I propose 750 cost, and up spaceship costs also ~1500-2000.

I definitely think SID's should be more. Not having dealt with spaceships I'll wait to judge at a later date.

[Jihad and NRA] cancel each other. That's the fair solution.

Cities should be easier to defend, IMO. maybe:
DC = defender's number of cities/2

Again, not a huge concern.

Is a rule (wasn't fully written out- I elaborated just now) but I don't see under what circumstances cities can be rehabbed for free? Maybe add that to one of the wonders? Colosseum?

The rules say cities are rehabbed for free?? so I'm not sure what you're asking.
If you're thinking of a rule to allow player's to rehab conquered cities immediately, you'll need to explain.

[MJW]

This is a silly question. Why did Spaced attack with 6 units? (6/10)*1.5 = 0.9 rounded down = 0. I think it was a typo. This means that Jonny could have lived, for a turn, by stopping Thebens War Phrase like me.

[MJW]

Jonny did not die. (33/10)*(14/10) = 4.62 rounded down = 4 cities. He started with 5 cities. So 5-4 = 1.

[Theben]

It's a moot point. Although it's another reason to fix the original posts, since I had completely forgotten about my own posts showing Jonny had 5 cities.

[Theben]

Hmmm, just noticed that DC incorporated some rule changes & clarifications. However:

(With Tower of Babel You can target Espionage)

should read Trojan Horse.

Also if you're suggesting a wonder allow for instant rehabbing of cities/wonders let me suggest the Mafia, and only for Republics, as it does nothing for those civs otherwise.

Also change the value of NASCAR. The benefit of not giving a trade bonus to another civ is more than offset by the loss of $$ from dropping to 75% total trade income, even if they're free. I would suggest allowing 100% trade income.

And if you don't want to change armies wrt foreign aid, maybe we should switch around the war and FA phases?

Lastly I think that MJW's interpretation of # of cities captured after a 2-way battle should be used.

[DarkCloud]

MJW- well, that's an interesting point. Spaced did only invade with 6. I just sort of assumed that between Spaced and Theben, they'd be able to take out Jonny- I suppose he actually still had one city. He probably would have sent more if I had corrected the city count from "2" to "5" in the chart- which I should have done. Nevertheless, the point is moot as Theben still won the game.

Hmm...

Foreign aid armies formula:
armies received= armies sent*(ST/RT)
ST=sender tech
RT=receiver tech

I see your explanation and your reason, but to minimize calculation, what about this suggestion- "a society may send no more than 1/2 of its total armies in Foreign Aid."

If you're thinking of a rule to allow player's to rehab conquered cities immediately, you'll need to explain.

Ah yes, that's what I meant.

And if you don't want to change armies wrt foreign aid, maybe we should switch around the war and FA phases?

That sounds like a good decision... any objections? War precedes foreign aid.

I'll consider the other suggestions per other people's input? In which post did MJW explain the # of cities captured idea?
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Also, just added rules for "default orders"

---Appendix: Non-Sending Orders and Default Orders
* In the event that the deadline for sending in orders has passed, the GM will "play" the non-sendee's turn. The GM will only defend, only trade with countries that were traded with in previous turns, and only research technology with gold. No other actions will be taken.

* To avoid this circumstance, players are encouraged to send "Default Orders" in the event they will not make their time deadline. Default Orders may consist of the Following.
1.) Build instructions when gone.
(Build Cities with 30% cash, Build Tech with 50% of cash, build armies with 20% cash.) If 20% is not enough to build something, then that percentage will be added COMPLETELY to whatever order is rated the highest.
2.) Trade instructions when gone.
(Trade with X)
3.) Nothing Else. This means no War instructions, no foreign aid instructions.

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Thanks again!
-DC.

[Theben]

The equation is to be used with our original armies and start cities.

Was Spaced comment and the formula used.

I think spaced should only have 3 cities.

((27/9-0))*(10/9) = 3.3 = 3 cities.

This way of counting makes much more sense. This is because I killed all but 27 of Spaced Cowboys units on the field.

Was MJW's contention and one that I think is more realistic.

[DarkCloud]

So you're saying the formula for capturing cities should be based on the starting number of cities for a round and should not count cities built or taken during the round?

I don't like that argument. It's more complicated.

[MJW]

I did not like being owned by "zombie arimes".

[DarkCloud]

Wait... are you saying that the number of cities captured should be captured AFTER casualties are applied?