Console Wars IV

[Felch]

Originally posted by Mr Snuggles
Perhaps some day I will explain to you the dilemma of limited resources, then. I don't know how you survived in this world without comprehending scarcity of resources.

This isn't a matter of limited resources, it's a matter of limited markets. The problem with only making AAA titles is that you're excluding 80%* of the total population.

For example - the best show on television may be the Sopranos, or the Wire, or Lost, or the Shield, or whatever. But that doesn't mean that every show should be the same as those. My mom doesn't like any of them - she'd rather watch cooking and decorating crap. By going for a bigger market, television avoids scarcity of resources.

In the same way, Wii Fit, and all the other non-gamer software Nintendo is making, allow Nintendo to remain in the business. They're not diverting scarce resources, they're uncovering new resources, by targeting a new market.

*I made this number up, but it's more illustrative than informative.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Nostromo
I have Vista SP1 and I have none of that bull****. I believe they improved UAC in SP1. I keep it on since I know that its a good way to prevent outsiders from installing crap on my PC without my knowledge.

You could try, like, not running Windows.

Jeez.. unless you have to use Windows only productivity apps, you might as well dual boot, and use Windows only for gaming. You'll be more or less safe if you do that.

[Agathon]

If I wanted an OS that told me what to do, I'd buy a ****ing MAC. I want a computer that recognizes I'm in charge, and lets me do what I want, without a bunch of nagging.

If you are a power user, root access is a terminal command away.

OS X does not nag. Running as admin you will get a prompt in only three ordinary cases.

(1) Where you attempt to unlock a file, preference pane or directory. This means you click the little padlock icon and then you will be prompted to enter your password. This is common sense, since you are attempting to unlock something, so you need the key.

(2) Where an application uses an installer, you will need to enter your password. This is increasingly rare, since most OS X installs are drag and drop. Most small apps are drag and drop, so it you don't have to do this very often.

(3) When you have downloaded an application from the internet, and you are running it for the very first time. OS X throws up a prompt, warning you that this app came from the net (it even puts a bar over the icon in the Finder as a warning). You can then click proceed, and you will never see the prompt again for that application. This is to prevent applications that are disguised as something else from being inadvertently launched.

That's it. The sum total of OS X nagging.

[Agathon]

The difference between the two situations is one of market dominance. In terms of home consoles, Nintendo hasn't been dominant since the mid 90s. It had to use a different strategy than the other guys, or it would get creamed.

Nintendo made a virtue of necessity, and it paid off handsomely. I don't think that is the whole story, however.

A problem with gaming is that consoles like the 360 and PS3 (both of which I own) are aimed at people like me. That is, people who like somewhat complicated games that are often like simulators or adventures or both (like GRAW). There is a market for that kind of game, but it is invariably above 13 and below 40 (the age of people who grew up with gaming – I am old enough to remember life before Pong) and it is invariably male. The 360 suffers from this to a large extent, since every second 360 game I own is a bloody shooter.

A lot of people don't like those sorts of games, but prefer the more traditional sort of game with cartoon graphics and innovative gameplay. The Wii has that in spades. Part of the reason it is so successful is that its the only console offering traditional video games (like the Mario games) rather than high def violent shooting games.

I realized that something was up when I saw that old folks' homes are buying Wiis and the elderly are addicted to playing them. Can you imagine that? Nintendo has found a way to turn elderly people into gamers.

Nintendo has won this generation of consoles hands down. They have simply owned the other manufacturers. This is because Nintendo realized that it is really about expanding the gaming market rather than super HD graphics and fast processors. Hardcore gamers will always be a minority, and Nintendo was smart enough to know that. I'm not one of their target market, but Nintendo deserves to be saluted for what it has done. If the Wii had not been released the future of consoles would just be an endless series of hardware dick measuring contests.

The Wii is the iPhone of consoles. It has made the industry think again.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Agathon
If you are a power user, root access is a terminal command away.

OS X does not nag. Running as admin you will get a prompt in only three ordinary cases.

(1) Where you attempt to unlock a file, preference pane or directory. This means you click the little padlock icon and then you will be prompted to enter your password. This is common sense, since you are attempting to unlock something, so you need the key.

(2) Where an application uses an installer, you will need to enter your password. This is increasingly rare, since most OS X installs are drag and drop. Most small apps are drag and drop, so it you don't have to do this very often.

(3) When you have downloaded an application from the internet, and you are running it for the very first time. OS X throws up a prompt, warning you that this app came from the net (it even puts a bar over the icon in the Finder as a warning). You can then click proceed, and you will never see the prompt again for that application. This is to prevent applications that are disguised as something else from being inadvertently launched.

That's it. The sum total of OS X nagging.

Funny. Those are functionally identical to the cases where you get a prompt in Vista... i.e. when you need privileged access.

[Asher]

Yep. The problem is, as I've stated, Windows' software ecosystem is largely legacy and such legacy apps were not designed with the superuser/user segregation in mind. Thus when Vista came out it was a rude awakening for a lot of developers and users, that has eased in recent times.

As I said, OS X's admin functionality is identical to that in Linux is identical to that in Vista, with the exception that Vista's is configured by default to simply get consent (click "Yes") rather than type your whole password.

By design, OS X is more naggy than Windows Vista because of the password requirement.
In implementation, Vista in its initial year was more naggy overall due to software that was never coded to the Windows 2000/XP software specs, specifically in install procedures.

I am not even bothering with Agathon's posts, as I am assuming they only provide comic relief.

[Asher]

Re: Re: Re: re: douchebag

Originally posted by Wiglaf
Works fine in XP without all the prompts. Since the first XP service pack and an antivirus and Windows defender, I've never had any problems. Why is it suddenly necessary?

Security threats evolve, Wiglaf. SP2 added a lot of security blocks that made it more difficult to hack Windows, but now hackers are finding their ways around that. You need to constantly evolve the security to keep ahead of malware authors.

They can actually defend against unknown threats as well.

Don't get me started on the PR bull**** behind malware heuristics.

I took a whole university course on this **** with guest lectures from Symantec. It's a marketing tool, Symantec mostly uses it to identify questionable software which it does not block, but transmits to their offices for analysis at a later date -- at which point they add it to their definitions, but more often than not it's a legit program.

So there's no point in a firewall, antivirus software, antispyware software, windows update, etc without UAC? What world do you live on?

Without UAC it is possible, and some new viruses and malware even do this now, to simply terminate the anti-spyware and anit-virus processes. This is possible without UAC because both the anit-virus and anti-spyware process run with the same privileges as the user, which is that of a superuser. Just as you can kill any process, other programs can kill any process. With UAC, this kind of attack is not permitted since killing an anti-virus or anti-spyware process requires user action and cannot be automated by malware. This is just one example of the kinds of attacks that subvert antivirus/antispyware software on accounts without UAC.

Let's think of this in a way a neo-con can understand. Without UAC, antivirus and antispyware programs are junior high volunteer hall monitors. They can stop scared children from cutting class, but a man with a machine gun can mow them down with ease. With UAC, the jr high volunteer hall monitors are replaced with Navy SEALs. They have additional authority (as opposed to the hall monitors which are on equal authority) and can stop virtually any threat that comes to it.

It comes up whenever I install anything, and I cannot make this up, it occasionally prompts me twice when dragging and dropping files from folder to folder. It is a complete embarrassment, and I am not the only one annoyed by it. Just google UAC for christ's sake.

I know a lot of people get annoyed by traffic lights and speed limits too, but that doesn't make them useless.

If it comes up while you are installing anything, you are probably using installers from companies who don't design the installers correctly, or you are choosing to install the application system-wide rather than for your user. The people to ***** about for this is the author of the installer, as if you're installing a simple application for one user there's no way you would need to use admin access.

[Asher]

So Sony's firmware update (v2.4) bricked a lot of people's consoles. They admitted fault, pulled the update, and re-released it today as v2.41 with the issue fixed.

But the fun part? If your console is not under warranty, you get to pay $150 and wait over a month for Sony to fix your console for their mistake.

Classy and classic.

I've never seen a device so half-assed in software before. It seems like every version they release -- and they release one every other month or so -- needs 3 or 4 minor patches to become stable and each patch is massive and takes 10 minutes or so to install. Compare that with the 360's updates, which are at most twice a year (~6 month intervals) and take about 10 seconds to install.

[Wiglaf]

SP2 added a lot of security blocks that made it more difficult to hack Windows, but now hackers are finding their ways around that

It's like I'm putting my pants on and can't find my belt here. Hackers have also found ways around UAC by doing damage without needing administrator privileges.

And do not you dare compare SP2's new features like the firewall to UAC. You disable UAC. I highly doubt you don't run a firewall. UAC is non essential, a stop gap to prevent idiots from running programs they don't know anything about.

Don't get me started on the PR bull**** behind malware heuristics

My virus definitions are updated several times a day. SEVERAL TIMES. The odds of me downloading or being exposed to a major threat to my computer before a definition, and unbenownst to heuristics scanning and Windows Defender, which does in fact indeed prevent programs from screwing with system files, are so small that they DO NOT EVEN COME CLOSE TO JUSTIFY A POP UP EVERY TIME I MOVE A FILE OR INSTALL A PROGRAM OR CHANGE MY SETTINGS.

In 10 years of using PCs I've never, honest to god never, had an undetected virus like this. I'm not retarded and I don't download things like the morons you see anchoring the local news and going down on the weatherman. It takes common sense, not UAC babying you.

Just as you can kill any process, other programs can kill any process.

Maybe if your antivirus is for crap.

Let's think of this in a way a neo-con can understand. Without UAC, antivirus and antispyware programs are junior high volunteer hall monitors. They can stop scared children from cutting class, but a man with a machine gun can mow them down with ease. With UAC, the jr high volunteer hall monitors are replaced with Navy SEALs. They have additional authority (as opposed to the hall monitors which are on equal authority) and can stop virtually any threat that comes to it.

UAC is like FAKE TITS, the bad kind. I'm so tired of going around and around in your merry go around of uncertainty, self deception, and homosexuality. The simple reality is that UAC doesn't stop any threat -- it asks the user if it's ok to run the threat -- which IT DOES TO VIRTUALLY EVERY PROGRAM.

The ONLY instance where a novice computer user would find this useless is if they downloaded Grandma.jpg and it asked them for permission to run an .exe. They MIGHT -- emphasis MIGHT -- notice this. But what about screensavers and other things they KNOW are going to change some settings and run an exe? UAC is ****ing useless.

If it comes up while you are installing anything, you are probably using installers from companies who don't design the installers correctly,

You can't suddenly change the rules on developers and then blame them. This is like playing a football game and then halfway through saying points are actually determined by yards gained and not touchdowns. And then, well, let's let Asher the Announcer make the call.

OH HELLO IT LOOKS LIKE THESE TEAMS JUST DIDN'T PLAY THE GAME CORRECTLY, WHAT WITH GOING FOR TOUCHDOWNS, AFTER ALL IN FACT THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS YARDS GAINED! DAD GET OUT OF THE BOOTH! THIS IS MY CHOICE I'VE GIVEN UP COMPUTERS AND JAVA APPLETS TO ESCAPE YOU AND NOW YOU'RE RUINING IT! GET MY MICROPHONE OUT OF MY ASS! GET IT OUT GO FLAMES

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wiglaf


It's like I'm putting my pants on and can't find my belt here. Hackers have also found ways around UAC by doing damage without needing administrator privileges.

And do not you dare compare SP2's new features like the firewall to UAC. You disable UAC. I highly doubt you don't run a firewall. UAC is non essential, a stop gap to prevent idiots from running programs they don't know anything about.

Yes, which is why it's on by default. If you know what you're doing, you can turn it off.

My virus definitions are updated several times a day. SEVERAL TIMES.

Then you don't need the notification of them being out of date, DO YOU.

I just won this -- did you like it rough?

[Wiglaf]

You are like the woman who says 'Was that good for you' and I am the man who says no and **** slaps her.

The reality here is quite simple. UAC is not even necessary by your own admission, I have won -- it is simply there to cater to the dumbest common denominator, the computer user who is too stupid to know when he is running malware and when he is opening a JPG of his grandmother. It does not 'educate' users like you say. It coddles them and annoys them and insults their intelligence at the same time. It is like the Joker, and the user is Gotham city.

/**** slap.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
You are like the woman who says 'Was that good for you' and I am the man who says no and **** slaps her.

The reality here is quite simple. UAC is not even necessary by your own admission

It is absolutely necessary for about 95% of computer users. Yourself included. The fact that the prompt comes up all the time for you is all the indication I need that you're clueless around your computer.

[Wiglaf]

YOU are just so fuzzy. Yes, anyone who changes their settings or saves files to the desktop is clueless around computers. Welcome to Asher's world, dildos are half off. I am going to go take a cold shower, dealing with you has probably shrunk my gonads.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
YOU are just so fuzzy. Yes, anyone who changes their settings or saves files to the desktop is clueless around computers.

If you're saving to the desktop, UAC isn't activated. The desktop is in userland.

[Nostromo]

I save files on my desktop all the time and UAC never bothers me. I only get a UAC prompt when I install a program or change system settings. That's it.