Is PC gaming doomed? Apolyton 2008 edition

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by El_Cid


Look if you(or anyone) is happy, even gratefull that a game gives 40 hours of game play, and maybe allows a little replayability within that, then great for you, really i'm very happy that you are fine with that, as are the console publishers for sure!
But we all know the average time per title is closer to 15hrs. If that rocks your boat then cool stay happy and keep buying, every other weekend!

I just want more from my games, I expect more as we were, once upon a time being given more and it was good - and imho gaming was much better than what we mostly get today, not always but the best was way better than today. But thats just an opinion. You dont have to cry about it, if you love your console and your games on it - great! I'm just not that impressed by what i've played and seen

Let's be clear - I'm not 'crying' about your preferences. Obviously we differ here. I'm pretty well off and gaming is very cheap entertainment. £25 for a game worth 10-40 hours play is reasonable from my perspective. It's the same or even less than a night at the theatre, a good meal, or an unlucky round of drinks at the pub. I'd rather have a shorter quality experience than an arbitrarily lengthened game. And let's be honest, there aren't and never have been many games on any format with the kind of replayability you crave. Mostly we're talking about PC strategy games like Civ - a genre I heartily support and hope to see continue. This can quite easily sit alongside my console playing.

I have never and will never take someone to task for their gaming preferences (aside from the odd snide remark about the Sims, but everyone loves those).

But, and I can't be any more clear than this - the mass generalisations have to stop, and I'm going to keep fighting them from all corners. Comments like the one above about difficulty levels in console games are not helpful to discussion, and frankly make you look stupid - and I know that you are capable of more than that.

So my advice is focus on explaining your gaming philsophy - using specific titles where you can - and lay off on the rest.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DrSpike

The only half valid point (which wasn't actually made) is around TBS. This is a genre which doesn't work well on consoles and has lots of replayability. But some of us who like both TBS and other quality games have (gasp) a PC and a console.

To be fair its a bit broader than TBS narrowly defined. Total War series, Paradox series type games, city builders, don't seem to have found a place on consoles. SOME RTS's sell decently at least on the 360, but even Asher, IIRC, has said the PC is a better choice for them.

As for sim type games other than citybuilders, eg The Sims, Spore, tycoon games, etc, I suspect you and I have different opinions of them in general

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DrSpike

I have never and will never take someone to task for their gaming preferences (aside from the odd snide remark about the Sims, but everyone loves those).

Actually one of the reasons Im not blown away by folks saying to me "but youve never played X, STFU" when it comes to console games, spore or whatever, is cause for years here people told me what a steaming pile of dreck The Sims was, in constrast to my impression reading about the game elsewhere and my own inclination. And lo and behold, when I actually played the damned thing I found it to be rather better than they had said. And when we had a debate about the level of challenge, and how it can be challenging depending on the family you start with, etc, the only person who really responded was Wiggy, and it turned out he simply had not tried playing it that way.

And no, this isnt trivial cause the Sims IS one of the two overwhelminginly dominant franchises on the PC the last few years. And yeah, I realize lots of people play it pretty casually and DONT select a family with 5 kids and a single mom like POTM did, so it IS easy - but I suspect some of the folks who play the FPS you mention play them on easier levels too.

[El_Cid]

Originally posted by DrSpike

Let's be clear - I'm not 'crying' about your preferences. Obviously we differ here. I'm pretty well off and gaming is very cheap entertainment. £25 for a game worth 10-40 hours play is reasonable from my perspective.

Ok the 'crying' bit was a bit low. And we do seem to differ(on our impression of modern console gameing) which is fine.

I'm pretty well off too thanks - I could(I did last generation) spend all the money i wanted on consoles and connection and a new game every week, but well I may be able to afford it but i dont like feeling like i'm being taken for a ride, even if it can be a short fun ride sometimes.

But just as you feel you 'have to' fight mass generalisations, I also do. You fight the ones from individuals that may or may not have a lot of gaming expereince and whose comments dont fit with your views. I fight the mass generalisations that come from a swollen and bloated and down right greedy industry that i know can do so much better.

And what console games cost £25? on 360/PS3? the entry point is more like £40 so £1 per hour of game(in the most generous and rare games). As someone who does finance(well Asher says you do?) you can:

A) see from the publisher side that it is a good model to maximise the potential profits out of(exploiting the 'hours per dollar').

B) hopefuly as a gamer you can still see just how consumer/sales driven modern gaming is, and it has no choice as the industry(and in part customers) has created it's own excessive production costs. Consoles, modern consoles are very much part of that(and which is why the Wii is so important imho, as it can buck that trend).

Originally posted by DrSpike

....I'd rather have a shorter quality experience than an arbitrarily lengthened game. And let's be honest, there aren't and never have been many games on any format with the kind of replayability you crave. Mostly we're talking about PC strategy games like Civ - a genre I heartily support and hope to see continue. This can quite easily sit alongside my console playing.

I would rather have a quality experience that also gives me bang for buck and decent replayability.

No games on any platform that does that? Really? Ok lets try this for fun

1. Civ(all of them)(PC) - you mentioned this and it is a special game.

2. SMAC/MoM/GalCiv(PC) - well civ in other clothes, but nothing like them on console.

3. Morrowind(and some mods)(PC) - totaly kills Oblivion in terms of hours of play, depth of rpg system, storys etc. Modded Oblivion is just hampered by Oblivons design.(I know you didn't like MW...but it has Oblivion(on console) for me to compare against)

4. Xcom(1+2)(PC) - Still the pinicle of sci-fi tbs, nothing has been done since that gets all of its strong points correct and improves them.

5. EU1+2/Crusader Kings(PC) - my god the hours you can sink into these!

6. FM 2007(PC) - console games have yet to do this well, although this series in its old CM clothes did get a short outing on Xbox, and it was good, but not as good as on PC. Years of gaming here if you like. And frankly you can keep your Fifa's - swos plays a better 'arcade' style football i think, although PES may be better?

7. Ultima/Eye of Beholder/Baldurs Gate/Planescape:Torment(PC) etc etc - massive rpgs drip from every pore of PC gamings history. Most spit in the eye, kick in the nuts and break the spine of ANY modern console rpg, and most console rpgs ever made in terms of depth of game design and hours playable.

8. Elite/FFE(PC) - yes we have other sexy looking space exploration/combat/trade type games on PC i could mention. But in terms of what was achieved on the hardware available, and what that hinted at in terms of what we SHOULD have seen in the future(our past/present), these were genre defining games, and still are. Did you get to Elite? I never did, but i had a damn good time trying, like over 5-6 years of playing these.

9. DeusEx/System Shock/Unreal/Doom/Hexen/Heretic/Half-life/Far Cry(PC) etc etc - FPS is one of my least favourite genres, probably due to the fact that i got my twitch-shooting bug out my system on games like space invaders/dropzone/millipede etc. But I do like to play them, a good game is a good game, and I think most people would agree that the PC is still king when it comes to FPS. Consoles get pretty close, and many get made as this is the trend in modern gaming, but all the guys i know who take their FPS very seriously play them on PC out of preference. I quite like them on console myself as i'm not a 'competative' FPS player so the auto-aim thing i dont mind.

10. (catch all basket)HoMM's/GrimFandango/MonkeyIslands/Day of the Tenticle/Fallout1+2/Command+Conquer/Moo's/Infocoms/MechCommander/TotalWar/AoE/Ctp's/etc etc

I could go on and on, but I think i've done enough, certainly to remind you of your gaming past(in many cases I expect), and some gaming present, and just how amazing the PC games range is especialy in terms of hours of gameplay, depth of gameplay, variety of game, replayability etc especialy in relation to what consoles have to offer(imho).
All the games listed certainly give more than 40hours of great gaming, add modding into the mix(something the PC is really great at) and console gaming just fades into the distance, for me.

Originally posted by DrSpike

But, and I can't be any more clear than this - the mass generalisations have to stop, and I'm going to keep fighting them from all corners. Comments like the one above about difficulty levels in console games are not helpful to discussion, and frankly make you look stupid - and I know that you are capable of more than that.

So my advice is focus on explaining your gaming philsophy - using specific titles where you can - and lay off on the rest.

Ok well the problem here is that the views I've been expressing that you have been finding annoying, and maybe the way i've done it, is a general view. Based on playing hundreds of console games over the last 4-5 years. It took me a few years in to this study to come to my conclusions, but I give a general overview on the state of console gaming(and modern AAA game development in general as it applies directly to this), because that is what it is.

There are specific games within my generalisation that will not fit the mold(KOTOR etc), but for the vast majority, the general overview, I think my points are fair and valid. But that doesn't mean I hate console gaming(I just think it can be better), and that doesn't mean you(or anyone) should feel upset that you like current console gaming. If you like it then great for you, really it's fantastic.

I just cant sit on the fence and think everything is ok, I love games and gaming too much to do that. It's not about looking at games as a mild distraction for me, something to do when you get home from work to take your mind of the stress etc.

I've personaly gotten too much out of games over the years to just let it become some shallow 'entertainment' that makes a good buck for a big company and not get bothered about that.
Computer gaming is something special, it does something films and books just cant compete with, and it's sad to see it fall short of its potential imho.

I'm very sorry if this offends people, but well the critisism stands and who knows, maybe someone 'out there' might read these kind of posts and think "yeah i'll chat with Sid about this and maybe our next console game will have a bit more teeth to it, a bit more PC flavour, a bit more value, a bit more replayability, a bit more depth"

Sh*t we do need a blo*dy miricle imho, if this industry isn't just going to become a bland faceless corporate led sad shadow of an excuse of what it was looking like becoming circa the 1990's. And those are NOT rose tinted glasses(I hate it when that lame excuse is used btw) - pretty much all the game titles I listed above, as examples of games that deliver what you said they couldn't(or hadn't) are from that era of PC gaming.

now get back to your glossy, sexy looking, one play, expensive, slightly brain-dead, short, console game - you have another to buy next week or you might get bored, and the console publisher needs your money!

EDIT: as a side note, I can be bothered to take the time to have a discussion like this with you Dr.Spike, as i know you are not just a blinded console fanboy. I can't guarantee I'll always be able to make the effort, but i felt your (possible) misguided grievence with my posts on this deserved some clarification, for old times sake so to speak. If you still feel i'm the anti-Asher then well somewhere down the years we've just drifted apart on what we feel good gaming is about. And that is ok from my point of view, if a little sad, but please do me the respect of not just calling my opinions idiotic(thats Ashers job).I certainly wouldn't do that to yours. - coT

[Asher]

1. Civ(all of them)(PC) - you mentioned this and it is a special game.

2. SMAC/MoM/GalCiv(PC) - well civ in other clothes, but nothing like them on console.

You might as well clump these together. Makes it obvious that you're desperate in this list.

3. Morrowind(and some mods)(PC) - totaly kills Oblivion in terms of hours of play, depth of rpg system, storys etc. Modded Oblivion is just hampered by Oblivons design.(I know you didn't like MW...but it has Oblivion(on console) for me to compare against)

Morrowind was also on consoles.

4. Xcom(1+2)(PC) - Still the pinicle of sci-fi tbs, nothing has been done since that gets all of its strong points correct and improves them.

5. EU1+2/Crusader Kings(PC) - my god the hours you can sink into these!

I'm noticing you don't like the concept of variety. More TBS. Yawn.

6. FM 2007(PC) - console games have yet to do this well, although this series in its old CM clothes did get a short outing on Xbox, and it was good, but not as good as on PC. Years of gaming here if you like. And frankly you can keep your Fifa's - swos plays a better 'arcade' style football i think, although PES may be better?

The best and only soccer game worthwhile is PES, which I don't think is on the PC. I don't think you want to even take this "sports gaming" avenue, this is the console's domain.

7. Ultima/Eye of Beholder/Baldurs Gate/Planescape:Torment(PC) etc etc - massive rpgs drip from every pore of PC gamings history. Most spit in the eye, kick in the nuts and break the spine of ANY modern console rpg, and most console rpgs ever made in terms of depth of game design and hours playable.

"Western" RPGs, the genre you're describing there, have moved to consoles as the lead development platform. They're then ported back to the PC (eg, the Elder Scrolls series).

8. Elite/FFE(PC) - yes we have other sexy looking space exploration/combat/trade type games on PC i could mention. But in terms of what was achieved on the hardware available, and what that hinted at in terms of what we SHOULD have seen in the future(our past/present), these were genre defining games, and still are. Did you get to Elite? I never did, but i had a damn good time trying, like over 5-6 years of playing these.

Desperation again.

9. DeusEx/System Shock/Unreal/Doom/Hexen/Heretic/Half-life/Far Cry(PC) etc etc - FPS is one of my least favourite genres, probably due to the fact that i got my twitch-shooting bug out my system on games like space invaders/dropzone/millipede etc. But I do like to play them, a good game is a good game, and I think most people would agree that the PC is still king when it comes to FPS. Consoles get pretty close, and many get made as this is the trend in modern gaming, but all the guys i know who take their FPS very seriously play them on PC out of preference. I quite like them on console myself as i'm not a 'competative' FPS player so the auto-aim thing i dont mind.

Another poor choice -- the best and most-played FPS games are on the consoles. You should look at how many games are played each week on Halo 3 and CoD4 360 compared to any PC FPS.

From your list, the only thing that's really better on the PC are the Turn Based Strategy games, which you really tried to milk by listing them multiple times by sub-genre...

[snoopy369]

Oblivion was the only TES series to be ported back - Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind were PC games to begin with (plus almost all of the other spinoff games).

[Asher]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Oblivion was the only TES series to be ported back - Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind were PC games to begin with (plus almost all of the other spinoff games).

Yes, but look at the trend now.

Fallout 3 is a 360 product being ported elsewhere as well. The consoles are now the lead platform for this kind of game.

What happened 5+ years ago doesn't matter, we're talking about now and in the future.

[snoopy369]

For my take, the split goes:

TBS: PC 100% - not playable on consoles really (CivRev )
RTS: PC 95% - not playable on consoles really, though some strides are made in this
FPS: Console 80%, PC 20% - Playable on PC largely only as console ports, though user mods are a bit easier on PC still.
RPG: PC/Console 50/50 - Different styles work better on the different machines, party-based RPGs still work better on the PC; and there are a lot of good indy RPGs that are by nature only available on the PC. Mainstream RPGs are definitely mostly on the Console.
Sports: Console 75%, PC 25% - Play-as-the-player sports games are entirely Console, while roster management sports games are nearly entirely PC (ie Front Office Football, etc.)
Puzzle: PC 60%, Console 40% - PC has the advantage of play-at-work, while Console is starting to get simply better games here (ie, Braid). Flash games though give PC the edge here, for now.
Platformer: Console 95% - PC never really got into these. Indy platformers are the only reason PC gets any credit here at all.
Flight/racing sims: PC 60%, Console 40%. Only because flight sims (PC 90%) are far cooler than racing sims (Console 80%), and PC has better accessories (ie, racing wheels and such), though console has caught up largely in this department.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Asher

Yes, but look at the trend now.

Fallout 3 is a 360 product being ported elsewhere as well. The consoles are now the lead platform for this kind of game.

What happened 5+ years ago doesn't matter, we're talking about now and in the future.

I was simply correcting your statement, nothing more

It's hard to argue that AAA RPG's are by and large on the console, though not 100% certainly. The indy stuff is more PC-oriented still, though, and some of it quite decent.

[Asher]

Flight/racing sims: PC 60%, Console 40%. Only because flight sims (PC 90%) are far cooler than racing sims (Console 80%), and PC has better accessories (ie, racing wheels and such), though console has caught up largely in this department.

The PC and consoles have the same kind of racing peripherals, and the far more popular games in this genre. Should be like 70% console..

[snoopy369]

No, because flight simulators are far cooler than racing games, and those are still AFAIK basically PC-only.

[Asher]

No one buys or plays Flight sims anymore...

It's a niche market if there ever was one.

[snoopy369]

But it's an AWESOME niche market

MS Flight Simulator X is #258 in Amazon's Video Games category, so it's not THAT small (and other versions are in the top 500 as well), anyhow ...

[Asher]

Originally posted by snoopy369
But it's an AWESOME niche market

MS Flight Simulator X is #258 in Amazon's Video Games category, so it's not THAT small (and other versions are in the top 500 as well), anyhow ...

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by El_Cid


A long post I'm not going to quote

If you make posts like that with arguments and examples (as CoT would have), you'll never get problems from me.

That's not to say I really agree, but that's fine. I think I covered off TBS in my post, and there are some genuinely replayable games there that will never be matched on consoles perhaps.

As LotM suggests, there are some wider strategy examples too. This (with GW) is the reason I still play PC games.

I'll just about buy the RPG points - the reason being there are really good RPGs around now that have things going for them the old classics didn't, and although I think Morrowind is a pile of poo as you suggested I kinda miss the BG/NWN style games with more complex progression mechanics. It's a shame these games aren't still getting released much because I would still play them, alongside great console RPGs like Lost Odyssey & Mass Effect (two very different games).

I'm not really taken with your arguments about FPS & adventure games though, especially the latter. Whoever replayed Monkey Island? I loved it, but I just don't see how such a game is replayable. And there are plenty of modern story based FPS games like BioShock. These games are simply better than the old classics by dint of better technology - for instance the graphics and voice acting in BioShock make it much more immersive than System Shock 2, which was one of the very best games of its time. And System Shock 2 clearly isn't any more replayable than BioShock. Less so, probably. The same for the other FPS games on your list.