Console Wars: The Clone Wars

[asleepathewheel]

I thought the central argument was that 3rd parties weren't selling on the wii?

Oh, so now its profitability of titles? Do you have links for support on how marginal the profits are on wii titles?

Oh, and here are wii 3rd party titles that, imho sold fairly well in the past year, I've included some that are multi-console but heavy wii sales. These are NPD and Europe, so no Japanese numbers included

from: http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?op...1&limitstart=0

99. Cooking Mama: Cook Off, Wii Exclusive, 470K
96. EA Playground Wii/DS 500K
92. Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles Wii Exclusive 540K
81. Dance Dance Revolution: Hottest Party Wii Exclusive 610K
80. Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07Wii (other versions came out earlier and are not counted here) 610K
76. Rayman Raving Rabbids 2 Wii/DS 630K
56. Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition Wii Exclusive 900K
47. Carnival Games Wii Exclusive 1.1M
36. High School Musical: Sing It! Wii/PS2 1.3M
27. LEGO Star Wars: Complete Saga Wii/DS/PS3/X360 1.8M
26. MySims DS/Wii 1.8M
22. Harry Potter & the Order of the Phoenix Wii/DS/GBA/X360/PS2/PS3/PSP/PC 2M hmm)
18. Tiger Woods PGA Tour 08 Wii/DS/X360/PS2/PS3/PSP/PC 2.3M
14. Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Wii/DS 3.4M
3. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock PS2/PS3/X360/Wii/PC 7.5M

Slim profit? Add the japanese numbers and some of those titles go higher, and others are included like Dragon Quest Swords.

The simple fact of the matter is that outside of Mario and Sonic, GH3, and carnival games, there isn't a massive selling 3rd party game, but I'm guessing that the ROI of the lesser ones I've included (which is why I included the first handful in this post) on this list is significantly higher than similarly situated HD games.

[asleepathewheel]

Oh, and the king of shovelware is one crown the PS2 will not be relinquishing any time soon.

[Asher]

The only numbers I've seen are like ~6 months old from EA, which placed Wii profitability as dead last.

A lot of those numbers in your latest post include multiplatform numbers, which is just ridiculous when discussing the Wii specifically?

The Wii's third party situation is this: apparently a lot of people buy a lot of crap games (shovelware). No one game stands out from the crowd in general. Publishers know not many copies will be sold of the games, so they put little to no effort into them.

Don't even know why we're discussing this. When you have a ****load of games selling 200,000, how much money do you think the studios are making here? Not a whole lot.

Good publishers do not make games hoping to sell 200-500,000. It reeks of low standards and low quality. That's the situation with Wii 3rd party...and it's not a healthy situation for 3rd party games. The growing consensus for Wii games is "third party == crap". The only quality games on the Wii come from Nintendo.

Even Guitar Hero III was "accidentally" released as a MONO game. That shows just how much publishers pay attention to the quality of their Wii games.

Taking into account all of the above, the third party situation on the Wii isn't nearly as healthy as its competitors.

[asleepathewheel]

I can't quit you Asher.

[DrSpike]

Whilst I don't disagree on the primacy of the Xbox 360 (as reflected in my choosing it over other alternatives) as an unbiased observer to this conversation I find Asher's position disingenuous.

First it was Wii third party games aren't selling, and he's repeatedly said in these threads that the overall attach rate is incredibly low and will remain so, which disincentivises third parties.

Then, when the attach rates posted above disprove this it becomes about profit (based on numbers I don't recall being posted). Then, when Asleep posts a list of third party games that have done well it's because they are multi-platform games? Not sure why, from the perspective of a third party thinking of making a Wii game, it matters whether it's cross platform or not.

And there are plenty of other strong sellers there anyway.

What makes this worse is if (under threat of torture or something ) we made Asher present his views fairly and objectively I'd probably agree with most - I have a healthy dislike of it's lack of power & poor games line-up, and a suspicion (tinged with curiosity I'll admit) about the controls. But it's just the way every single little thing about everything has to support this stance that chafes. It doesn't, because of the only real fact here:

FACT: The Wii is a major success - in hardware and to an extent software sales. It offers something different to the 360 and the PS3, and not just different, it's something lots of people seem to want. The fact that the average 'Poly member isn't among them doesn't change this.

[Nikolai]

[Asher]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Whilst I don't disagree on the primacy of the Xbox 360 (as reflected in my choosing it over other alternatives) as an unbiased observer to this conversation I find Asher's position disingenuous.

First it was Wii third party games aren't selling, and he's repeatedly said in these threads that the overall attach rate is incredibly low and will remain so, which disincentivises third parties.

If you look at the data asleep as provided, you'll see that 3rd party sales didn't pick up until rather recently. It takes time for these trends to come to light, as they now have, so to call it disingenuous is to be disingenuous.

Second, I've conceded that the Wii's 3rd party software is selling decent amounts as a whole now. The remaining problem here is how so many titles sell 100k-200k, which is enough for publishers to break even only if they put no money/effort into their games. Which is exactly what is happening on the Wii, except for Nintendo.

Then, when the attach rates posted above disprove this it becomes about profit (based on numbers I don't recall being posted). Then, when Asleep posts a list of third party games that have done well it's because they are multi-platform games? Not sure why, from the perspective of a third party thinking of making a Wii game, it matters whether it's cross platform or not.

The numbers he quoted were the aggregate total across ALL platforms. thus, it is not a useful tool to determine how well the Wii's software is selling.

I did not say they did well because they are multiplatform. My point was the #s he quoted (which indicated they "did well") more often than not included the sum total sold on all systems. Which makes it...disingenuous?

FACT: The Wii is a major success - in hardware and to an extent software sales. It offers something different to the 360 and the PS3, and not just different, it's something lots of people seem to want. The fact that the average 'Poly member isn't among them doesn't change this.

The Wii is a major success for Nintendo. It's also a major success for makers of crapware like the people who make Cooking Mama. It's not a major success for most third party publishers.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Asher

If you look at the data asleep as provided, you'll see that 3rd party sales didn't pick up until rather recently. It takes time for these trends to come to light, as they now have, so to call it disingenuous is to be disingenuous.

Ok - if you are accepting that now based on current info then it's not disingenuous.

Originally posted by Asher
Second, I've conceded that the Wii's 3rd party software is selling decent amounts as a whole now.

Good stuff.

Originally posted by Asher
The remaining problem here is how so many titles sell 100k-200k, which is enough for publishers to break even only if they put no money/effort into their games. Which is exactly what is happening on the Wii, except for Nintendo.

Agreed - shovelware is still an issue, and if I do get a Wii there are reasonably few titles I'd consider buying.

Originally posted by Asher
The Wii is a major success for Nintendo. It's also a major success for makers of crapware like the people who make Cooking Mama. It's not a major success for most third party publishers.

I don't think third party developers are the main issue when deciding whether the Wii is a success. It is popular with consumers as indicated by the sales, and (as you suggest) has no doubt made Nintendo a lot of cash. And good third party titles are starting to appear more frequently - examples being No more Heroes (exclusive as far as I know) and Pro Evo 8 (with totally redesigned control mechanism).

As far as I can see, from an objective perspective, things look pretty rosy for the Wii.

[Asher]

Ubisoft's game revenue by platform...

PlayStation 3
2006/2007 - Q4: 5% // Full Fiscal Year: 2% (System not released until 11/06)
2007/2008 - Q4: 23% // Full Fiscal Year: 20%

Wii
2006/2007 - Q4: 14% // Full Fiscal Year: 14% (System not released until 11/06)
2007/2008 - Q4: 9% // Full Fiscal Year: 10%

Xbox 360
2006/2007 - Q4: 29% // Full Fiscal Year: 28%
2007/2008 - Q4: 33% // Full Fiscal Year: 26%

[Asher]

I don't think third party developers are the main issue when deciding whether the Wii is a success. It is popular with consumers as indicated by the sales, and (as you suggest) has no doubt made Nintendo a lot of cash. And good third party titles are starting to appear more frequently - examples being No more Heroes (exclusive as far as I know) and Pro Evo 8 (with totally redesigned control mechanism).

Here's a perfect example though. You get developers who spend a lot of money making a quality game on the Wii, like No More Heroes, and it sells 270,000 worldwide.

That's just pathetic. Where's the incentive to create more games like that? Shovelware like Cooking Mama and Trauma Center are much cheaper to make and sell far better.

The Wii's game-buying demographic is bizarre. You've got your Nintendo fans who buy any and all Nintendo games, then you've got people who've zero taste in games at all and think Wii games simulating making an omelet is fun. Caught in the middle are third-party developers that try to make good games. And nobody is buying those, in the big picture.

Edit: Pro Evolution Soccer 2008 for Wii is the same issue: 320,000 worldwide. It's already sold 2.5 million on the other two consoles. Not to mention over 3 million on the PS2 alone. And 500,000 for the PSP version...

[asleepathewheel]

No More Heroes is a terrible example, Asher, for a 3rd party game not profiting. Apparently the dev, Suda51 was pretty pleased with the sales.

I haven't been able to find the exact cost of the game, but it was extremely low, and if you've played it, you would realize it. I have, it is low low budget, even for a wii game.

Pro evo soccer should have done better, apparently the controls were quite revolutionary. Maybe next year after word has spread, I dunno.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Asher


The numbers he quoted were the aggregate total across ALL platforms. thus, it is not a useful tool to determine how well the Wii's software is selling.

Well, the website I quoted, I'm sorry if I didn't say this earlier, listed the platforms in order of performance, so, say:

36. High School Musical: Sing It! Wii/PS2 1.3M

Would be the wii having sold more than 650k and the ps2 having sold less than 650k.

I'm not trying to pull any sleight of hand here.

[Asher]

270,000 worldwide for a game with an avg score of 83% is a perfect example of the dichotomy of hardcore Nintendo users + tastless gamers on the Wii. Good, third party games like NMH are ignored.

Not sure why you think it's a terrible example. If you make a game that everyone scores above 80% for a console with what, 20 million install base, 270,000 worldwide is absolutely dreadful.

Edit: So High School Musical: Sing It! (67% avg score) sold at least 3x more than No More Heroes (83% avg score). Yeah, no problem here.

BTW, http://vgchartz.com/games/index.php?...rd=&order=Hits

High School Musical: Sing It! for Wii: 780,000
High School Musical: Sing It! For PS2: 1,120,000

[asleepathewheel]

Wait, I thought you were talking about profits, not quality. Have you switched arguments on me again.

And my point about the terrible example was referring to your:
"You get developers who spend a lot of money" line.

They didn't spend a lot of money, relative to the field.

I'm a bit slow on the uptake-a bit preoccupied.

If you look at Suda51's previous games, NMH performed quite well. Considering it had no marketing what so ever, I'm not sure how well it could be expected to perform.

Actually, I can't recall any tv ads for wii exclusive games, NMH would have greatly benefited by a alright campaign, as would zack and wiki.

Of course, I don't watch Adult swim, which is where I would drop those ads, so perhaps they were out there.

[DrSpike]

Pro Evo 8 on the Wii was released a lot more recently than on the other consoles, where it has had time to sell.

Not saying Wii sales will match 360 sales, but comparing the two like for like is a bit disingenuous.