Console Wars II

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Asher

Guitar Hero is very much a social/party game. I'm genuinely surprised Wii sales didn't beat the 360 sales, given the Wii's target demographic.

Are you, now. Did you predict this? I dont seem to recall you did, but thats probably just my poor memory. So whats your prediction for Wii vs 360 sales for Rock Band?

Anyway, if Wii can be not only a Wii Sports player, but a player for party games in general, including AAA third party titles, its going to be far from a gameless machine (not to mention Nintendo 1st party games like the upcoming Mario Galaxy)

[q]GH-like games are more aligned with the Wii social gamer (Mario Party, Wii Sports) than the Halo / Gears of War gamer. Not to mention the fact that the 360's gaming choices are a rather flooded market right now, the Wii's isn't even close -- competition from other titles can impact as well. For instance, I plan to get GH3 for the 360 but I'm too busy playing about half a dozen other 360 games to get it right now. If I only had a Wii, I'd get it now.

Well thats a good point. Of course if Wii players are mainly grannies who only want to play Wii Sports, it doesnt hold - if they are folks who actually WANT to play games, though, then of course the first tranche of good 3rd party games for the Wii will benefit.

It also means that it was wise for a 3rd party developer like Activision to make their game available for the Wii. Kind of an equilibrating thing, ya know?

[Asher]

Weak weak weak.

Are you, now. Did you predict this?

Yes, but not here. I wasn't aware we had a GH3 prediction contest, please link me to it...

So whats your prediction for Wii vs 360 sales for Rock Band?

Rock Band is a more hardcore game with a higher pricetag. 360 sales will be greater. DLC is also a bigger part of Rock Band, which doesn't exist on the Wii.

It also means that it was wise for a 3rd party developer like Activision to make their game available for the Wii. Kind of an equilibrating thing, ya know?

Why wouldn't you make it available? It's not expensive at all to port, it's a basic game. Putting it on every available platform makes sense.

I think it's incredibly stupid to take the fact that GH wasn't outsold 2-1 by the Xbox 360 version as a sign that third parties are just fine on the Wii. It's an exception, and it still didn't catch MS.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Asher
Weak weak weak.

Are you, now. Did you predict this?

Yes, but not here. I wasn't aware we had a GH3 prediction contest, please link me to it...

When you use "i wasnt surprised" as an argument, its natural to ask. Can you link to where you DID predict it?

So whats your prediction for Wii vs 360 sales for Rock Band?

Rock Band is a more hardcore game with a higher pricetag. 360 sales will be greater. DLC is also a bigger part of Rock Band, which doesn't exist on the Wii.

I have little doubt 360 sales will be greater, as they were for GH3. How much greater though? 2 to 1? 3 to 1? 4 to 1?

It also means that it was wise for a 3rd party developer like Activision to make their game available for the Wii. Kind of an equilibrating thing, ya know?

Why wouldn't you make it available? It's not expensive at all to port, it's a basic game. [/q]

Oh, well Im not a coder, I thought you said it was hard to code for the Wii. But not this kind of game. I see.

Putting it on every available platform makes sense.

I think it's incredibly stupid to take the fact that GH wasn't outsold 2-1 by the Xbox 360 version as a sign that third parties are just fine on the Wii. It's an exception, and it still didn't catch MS.

Im not sure exactly what "just fine" means in this context. Did the previous Nintendo consoles have many exceptions like this?

[Asher]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
When you use "i wasnt surprised" as an argument, its natural to ask. Can you link to where you DID predict it?

It was not on the intarwebs. I'm confused -- I say I expected the Wii version to sell more and you're all on my case about it. What gives?

I have little doubt 360 sales will be greater, as they were for GH3. How much greater though? 2 to 1? 3 to 1? 4 to 1?

Don't know, don't care. I'm actually rather skeptical about how well it'll do altogether, given its release proximity to GH3, its price ,and the fact that EA says it'll be in limited availability to the new year. Making predictions on ratio of sales at this point is beyond stupid.

Oh, well Im not a coder, I thought you said it was hard to code for the Wii. But not this kind of game. I see.

I didn't say it was hard to code for it. Just harder with less tools. And GH games are indeed a different beast, the code itself is incredibly simple and portable. The real hard part is making the songs, etc (the content), which can go on both systems.

They still didn't do a very good job. I hear the Wii version is in Mono, not even Stereo.

Im not sure exactly what "just fine" means in this context. Did the previous Nintendo consoles have many exceptions like this?

Previous Nintendo consoles were not social gaming machines.

[Nostromo]

Anandtech dissects the Xbox 360 Falcon. They also give a couple of tricks on how to tell if the 360 you're about to buy (or the one you already bought) is a Falcon or not.

http://www.anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3152

They don't seem to be aware either whether the Red Ring of Death problem as been "fixed", as Asher and Verto claim. I checked on a couple of websites, Beyond 3D among others, and found no evidence whatsoever that the problem has been fixed. If you guys have links, it would be appreciated.

Earlier this year, Microsoft announced an extension of the Xbox 360's warranty from 1 to 3 years for consoles affected by the infamous Red Ring of Death (RRoD) defect. Microsoft never confirmed what actually caused the RRoD, or how many consoles would ultimately be affected, but the symptoms are very well known. Your console will start to freeze/lock up, eventually followed by three red lights on the front of the system, after which you'll either be able to revive the box for short periods of time or it becomes an expensive piece of modern art.

The present solution to RRoD is pretty simple; you call Microsoft's support hotline, you give the representative some information about your Xbox 360 (he/she will then walk you through some diagnostic steps, nothing too painful), and a few days later you'll find an empty box at your doorstep. Toss in your Xbox 360, affix the pre-paid shipping label (Microsoft even provides tape to seal the box) and about a month later you'll get a refurbed or brand new Xbox 360, as well as a 30-day pass for Xbox Live. While you're without your console for as much as a month, at least there's no cost incurred; overall Microsoft takes care of RRoD victims quite well.

Many have surmised that the reason for the RRoD problems is because of inadequate GPU cooling, resulting in fractures in the lead-free solder between the chip and the motherboard. We haven't been able to confirm this suspicion but we have been able to find evidence that Microsoft ignored many suggestions to improve GPU cooling in the Xbox 360, although we're not sure why.

Simply looking at the Xbox 360's internals you see that there's something wrong with the cooling setup; the heatsink covering the GPU, albeit wide, is barely large enough to cool a low end desktop graphics card, much less the higher powered GPU that's in the Xbox 360. If we assume that the Xbox 360's GPU is at least as powerful as the PS3's, the cooling requirements should be somewhere similar; given that the PS3 basically had a GeForce 7800 GTX under its hood, the cooling requirements should be similar. What would require a two-slot cooling solution in a desktop PC was given a barely adequate heatsink on the Xbox 360 and stuck underneath a DVD drive.

Despite the seemingly inadequate cooling, the Xbox 360 worked just fine - the exception being what seemed to be an inordinate amount of RRoD failures, but since Microsoft extended the warranty it wasn't a huge problem, just more of an annoyance.

It's possible that simple tweaks in the manufacturing process could reduce the likelihood of RRoD, assuming that it is heat related. As yield curves improve over the life of manufacturing a particular chip, it is possible to produce chips that run at lower voltages and are thus cooler. It could very well be that the consoles that fail due to RRoD are simply using higher yield GPUs that run at higher voltages, and thus produce more heat, explaining why the problem seems to affect some consoles but not others. If this correlation were true, as overall chip yields improve, the chances of RRoD go down.

When rumors began creeping up about Microsoft moving to 65nm chips in the Xbox 360, many wondered if this could be the end of the RRoD problems, saving owners the headache with dealing with potential failure. Assuming that the root cause of RRoD is inadequate cooling, it is feasible that moving to cooler chips could alleviate if not altogether fix the problem.

While there's no conclusive way of proving whether or not these new Xbox 360s will reduce the chances of the dreaded RRoD, the geek in us couldn't help but try to go find one of these babies, test it and take it apart.

[Asher]

They don't seem to be aware either whether the Red Ring of Death problem as been "fixed", as Asher and Verto claim. I checked on a couple of websites, Beyond 3D among others, and found no evidence whatsoever that the problem has been fixed. If you guys have links, it would be appreciated.

WTF?

How can you "prove" it's fixed? You're asking a retarded question with no answer. The RRoD problem happened over long periods of time due to overheating causing the CPU to pop out of the socket. The new chips provably suck much less power (meaning less heat) and have more impressive heatsinks. Further, I've not heard of a single Falcon having a RRoD.

The onus isn't on anyone to prove it's fixed, it's for you to prove that you don't think it is fixed even though it's an entirely new motherboard, new CPU, new heatsink with provably lower temperatures, power draw, and provably superior heatsinks. Good luck.

I'm genuinely curious WTF you are thinking. What "evidence" can be provided that the RRoD has been fixed?

[Nostromo]

Please, lets leave proofs where they belong: mathematics

I was just asking for evidence, not proofs.

What "evidence" can be provided that the RRoD has been fixed?

You basically answered your question:

Further, I've not heard of a single Falcon having a RRoD.

If a lot less people with Falcon's complain about RRod's, it would be evidence. Although its anecdotal, its a start. And if the companies who sell Xbox's (Best buy, Futureshop, EB Games, etc., etc.) or those who offer extended warranties made a statement that the failure rates dropped to "normal" levels after the introduction of the Falcons, it would be evidence. So its basically the same evidence that made everyone think that the failure rate could be as high as 30%.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Cool info in that article for those of us less informed on how to make sure you get a 'fixed' xbox though.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Asher
Guitar Hero is very much a social/party game. I'm genuinely surprised Wii sales didn't beat the 360 sales, given the Wii's target demographic.

GH-like games are more aligned with the Wii social gamer (Mario Party, Wii Sports) than the Halo / Gears of War gamer. Not to mention the fact that the 360's gaming choices are a rather flooded market right now, the Wii's isn't even close -- competition from other titles can impact as well. For instance, I plan to get GH3 for the 360 but I'm too busy playing about half a dozen other 360 games to get it right now. If I only had a Wii, I'd get it now.

Also, Rock Band is coming to the 360 and PS3 very soon, giving people an immediate alternative to GHIII. The Wii is slated to get the title, but who knows when?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Nostromo

If a lot less people with Falcon's complain about RRod's, it would be evidence. Although its anecdotal, its a start. And if the companies who sell Xbox's (Best buy, Futureshop, EB Games, etc., etc.) or those who offer extended warranties made a statement that the failure rates dropped to "normal" levels after the introduction of the Falcons, it would be evidence. So its basically the same evidence that made everyone think that the failure rate could be as high as 30%.

Again, can I reiterate how stupid this is?

The vast majority of RRoD errors are repaired by MS.

You ask for "evidence" of the fix, then suggest a dropoff in the people complaining with Falcon consoles as perhaps evidence of this. I've not seen any at all. But it's you asking for Links to support the claim that there are less?

Think, please.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Well, that was rather unpleasant...you must enjoy being rude.

I'ld personally like a link or two as well. Problem is there isn't one. I have to ask: Why?

M$ has to know the RROD was bad PR. It wouldn't be a bad move to announce the error rates of the 'fixed' xboxes as significantly lower. Now, perhaps there hasn't been time to KNOW that yet, and I can understand that.

And, "M$ will repair your RROD" is NOT an answer to the situation at all in my mind. I'ld rather not have to wait around for it to get returned, myself.

As for what kind of proof could there be?

An announcement from M$?
Gamestop reinstating their service plan on xbox maybe?
Any kind of report on it?

Word will get out whether they are fixed or not. Eventually. Yes, it's most likely too soon, for it is a problem that occurs over time. But wanting links to prove that something is fixed, given the lapse in admitting the problem in the first place, is certainly not 'stupid'.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Asher

It was not on the intarwebs. I'm confused -- I say I expected the Wii version to sell more and you're all on my case about it. What gives?

a desire for falsifiability? Since you know SO much more about all this stuff, so much more than us stupid peasants and filosofers, Id like to see you go out on a limb about the Wii in prospect. In retrospect theres always spin ("japan is weird", "Thats not really a game", "its a party game, I always expected that", etc)

[Asher]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Well, that was rather unpleasant...you must enjoy being rude.

I'ld personally like a link or two as well. Problem is there isn't one. I have to ask: Why?

Do you not think?

You want a link that says consoles that just come out will absolutely cure a chronic problem? And this would be backed by "evidence"? Please. Think. Pleaaasse.

[quote]M$ has to know the RROD was bad PR. It wouldn't be a bad move to announce the error rates of the 'fixed' xboxes as significantly lower.

But wanting links to prove that something is fixed, given the lapse in admitting the problem in the first place, is certainly not 'stupid'.

It most certainly is. You want MS to make a press release to reiterate quality problems with the product that most people have forgotten about, and intelligent people already know has been addressed.

This is incomprehensibly stupid. It'd be BAD PR, because it'll bring the issues back into the public mind. It'd be INEFFECTIVE PR because people will say "of course MS says it is, but we can't trust them!"

You're asking for evidence that the new CPUs, motherboards, and cooling devices will reduce temperatures. This evidence is already out there. Whether you can connect the dots between low thermal envelopes with the known cause of the RRoD being excessive heat causing a warped MB/CPU socket is purely an exercise in the reader's intelligence. There's no link for that, but there are links showing the Falcon 360s are cooler, less power hungry, and have better cooling. A smart person can contrast this with the cause of the RRoD problems.

[Asher]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


a desire for falsifiability? Since you know SO much more about all this stuff, so much more than us stupid peasants and filosofers, Id like to see you go out on a limb about the Wii in prospect. In retrospect theres always spin ("japan is weird", "Thats not really a game", "its a party game, I always expected that", etc)

Are you forgetting what we're talking about. I expected GH3 to do better on the Wii. It didn't. I was wrong.

I don't know what you are whining about.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Asher


Are you forgetting what we're talking about. I expected GH3 to do better on the Wii. It didn't. I was wrong.

I don't know what you are whining about.

Dick Cheney (the real one, not wiggy) : I actually expected things to be far worse in Iraq than they are. I was wrong.

You're admitting to a mistake, but one that reinforces your larger judgement of the Wii. One could be pardoned for suspecting that you expected less for GH3 sales on the Wii - certainly lots of folks on lots of interweb forums have expressed surprise at how high the numbers are. Given how out of the mainstream a Wii GH3 sales forecast higher than what actually took place would have been, and given how surprising to some of us here it would have been coming from you, it would have been interesting to have seen your forecast. But, as you very correctly point out, we had no GH3 prediction contest.

And as Verto correctly points out, there can be no equivalent for Rock Band, as the release dates wont be comparable.