Hangman Discussion Thread

[Nikolai]

Me too.

[duke o' york]

D.

[joncha]

I'm not sure why you're so gung-ho on moving it to the OT, Spike. Several people have already posted that they wouldn't play anymore if it was moved, and rah has been very clear that it doesn't necessarily have to be done.

So far he has agreed to any of these possibilities:

1. move it to the OT, save all the threads
2. leave it here, but delete all the old threads
3. leave it here, save the old threads, but delete the new ones

From that I believe we have a lot of flexibility here. It shows me that we can (if we care enough) come up with a way to please everyone. My quick-and-dirty, half-joking solution would be to give a 100-post pcr to each of the top 5 posters in every thread.

The issue that rah has to deal with (and defend to the rest of the staff) is the posts. I think we can come up with a satisfactory solution to that. A move to the OT may or may not be a part of that.

The issue that we have to deal with is the game's deteriorating atmosphere. This is the more difficult one to fix, and moving to the OT does nothing to fix it.

Let's work on finding a solution to both.

[DrSpike]

I agree that moving new threads to OT is not a sufficient condition for success. It is, however, in my view (you are of course entitled to yours) a necessary one, as there is no solution to clear the air here except one I consider.......unlikely to occur. OT would bring a new playerbase, and with it a new game. Old problems would hopefully be mitigated. Whether it works (or the game is shut down entirely) will depend on whether people can learn to think before they post, and that serious posts have serious consequences.

It also fundamentally makes sense on the second tier posts issue.

I say move new threads to OT on a trial basis at first. The couple of players that said they wouldn't play in OT as they don't go there can easily learn to use my threads or whatever. If the game continues fine, as I'm sure it will, then leave it at that.

[Ljube]

OK, I'll repost this so we can continue the discussion here:

I wasn't lazy and went through the threads. I found this in Hangman XI (the first time that an update must also occur after each word guess appeared in the rules):

originally posted by me on 5 August 2004
I think when someone guesses the word it should be updated immediately. Could you correct the rules to that effect joncha?

Joncha's reply:

Sure. Later. Me go sleep now.

And that's how this thing got into the rules.

[Ljube]

Re: Hangman XII: The Forum Game

The rules were then corrected to this:

Originally posted by joncha
Hangman Rules, History and Standings

Rules

• 1. A maximum of 10 guesses.
• 2. Updates must be posted within 24 hours of each other, and will occur in sets of 2, except for the final 2 guesses, which will be updated individually. An update must also occur after each word guess.
• 3. Any guesses after 2 have occured since the last update will be ignored.
• 4. You can only pick one letter for every two consecutive sets of guesses.
• 5. Guesses cannot be changed after being posted.
• 6. You can guess the word at any time, but guessing incorrectly eliminates you from play.
• 7. Incorrect word guesses also count as losing a life.
• 8. Words must be 5 or more letters.
• 9. Words must be standard english, and cannot be proper nouns.

[Ljube]

However near the end of that thread (Hangman XII) a situation occured that caused change to teh rules again.

Originally posted by civman2000
_ _ _ _ UM

[AITWOE]

4

Originally posted by duke o' york
Y

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
L

Originally posted by duke o' york
Gypsum

Originally posted by Ljube
I believe this guess is invalid.

Originally posted by Heresson
So, You have to wait with word guesses to the new round as well, it counts the same as letter guess?

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot

why invalid ?

I believe you can guess the word at anytime

only if you mistake the word then you are out until the next round

Originally posted by Ljube
To guess after 2 guesses have already occurred is in direct violation of the rule number 3.

Originally posted by duke o' york
Guessing the word and guessing individual letters are entirely separate. Sorry if the rules don't make that clear enough.

Why, what do you think the word is?

Originally posted by Heresson
OK, I'll post my very own Gypsum guess as soon as possible, he he he

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
as point 6 states, the word can be guessed at any time.

indeed this issue was looked into and discussed at some length many threads ago

so if the word is correct it is onto Duke...

if not then we need to get thinking as to what this little nutcracker could be

Originally posted by Ljube
I suggest a modification to the rules to avoid ambiguities of this kind.


Rules

• 1. A maximum of 9 incorrect guesses.
• 2. Updates must be posted within 24 hours of each other, and will occur in sets of 2, except for the final 2 guesses, which will be updated individually. An update must also occur after each word guess.
• 3. Any guesses after 2 have occurred since the last update will be ignored, including word guesses.
• 4. You can only pick one letter for every two consecutive sets of guesses.
• 5. Guesses cannot be changed after being posted.
• 6. You can guess the word at any time, but guessing incorrectly eliminates you from play.
• 7. Incorrect word guesses also count as losing a life.
• 8. Words must be 5 or more letters.
• 9. Words must be standard English, and cannot be proper nouns.

Originally posted by civman2000
The word is indeed gypsum.

Originally posted by Ljube
So, what now?

Originally posted by duke o' york
How about:


Rules

• 1. A maximum of 9 incorrect guesses.
• 2. Updates must be posted within 24 hours of each other, and will occur in sets of 2, except for the final 2 guesses, which will be updated individually. An update must also occur after each word guess.
• 3. Any letters guessed after the first two, and before an update, will be ignored, and will not carry over to the next set of guesses.
• 4. You can only pick one letter for every two consecutive sets of guesses.
• 5. Guesses cannot be changed after being posted.
• 6. You can guess the word at any time, but guessing incorrectly eliminates you from play.
• 7. Incorrect word guesses also count as losing a life.
• 8. Words must be 5 or more letters.
• 9. Words must be standard English, and cannot be proper nouns.

I think that this is much closer to the spirit of the original rules. We can ask Joncha for a ruling later on though.

Originally posted by Ljube
OK, give the next word.

[Ljube]

Final joncha's ruling:

Originally posted by joncha
Ljube is wrong. Updates must occur after every 2 guesses (or every guess in the final stages of the game), but word guesses may occur at any time.

[Ljube]

Then in Hangman XV a situation occurred which caused another rewording of the rules. A letter guess was made in between word guesses (2 word guesses) before an update. According to the rules then in power all guesses had to be counted. Rule 3 was then reworded to:

Originally posted by Ljube
I suggest rule 3 reworded like this:

3. Any letters guessed after the conditions for an update set out in rule 2 have been met and before the actual update will be ignored, and will not carry over to the next set of guesses.

[joncha]

Right. So what we need to decide is whether disallow any word guesses after the conditions for an update are met (2 letters, 1 letter at the end, or a word) as we do for letters, allow them regardless.

I can see good and bad points either way. Chiefly, when it gets down to appropriate word-guessing time, there are generally a handful of words that will fit. In these cases, multiple word guesses are fair. In other cases, however, greedy multiple word guesses can be a killer.

Maybe we should only allow a maximum of two word guesses at a time or something...

[Ljube]

Do we really need to limit word chains? I can't recall a single instance where word strings have been abused.

On the other hand, if we're moving to the off topic, perhaps we should limit the number of consecutive word guesses.

[joncha]

Ah, yes. If we do move to the OT, I'd be for no further guesses being possible after a word guess (until after the next update, that is).

[snoopy369]

Limiting word guesses is a poor idea, because it gives even more advantage to the poster in the same timezone as the updater. Allowing more of them means that if there're 4 possible words, four people can guess them all even in different zones

[Ljube]

True, but in off topic...

[Ljube]

In Hangman 19 another change occurred, the one preventing the exploit I explained here:

Originally posted by Ljube
We added rule 7 to prevent an exploit that can happen if there are 2 guesses left and 2 possible words available where a player can guess a letter first and then guess the other word thus winning the game by making essentially two consecutive word guesses.

I don't see why we would forbid a string of word guesses. In some instances it is the only way for someone to get a point. It is only used when there are more guesses remaining than possible words or when there are so many possible words that the situation is hopeless anyway.

Since the rule has never been abused I don’t see the reason to change it. Word guesses are counted at any time provided they satisfy the conditions set out in rule 7.

The rules were then reworded by DrSpike and me to this:

Originally posted by Ljube
Here, DrSpike's rules proposal with my modification to rule 9 to represent the option supported by most people.


Rules

• 1. A maximum of 9 incorrect guesses.
• 2. Updates must be posted within 24 hours of each other, and will occur in sets of 2, except for the final 2 guesses, which will be updated individually. An update must also occur after each word guess.
• 3. Any letters guessed after the conditions for an update set out in rule 2 have been met, but before the actual update, will be ignored, and will not carry over to the next set of guesses.
• 4. You can only pick one letter for every two consecutive sets of guesses.
• 5. Guesses cannot be changed after being posted.
• 6. You can guess the word at any time, subject to the qualification in rule 7, but guessing incorrectly eliminates you from play.
• 7. If you make a letter guess you may not make a word guess before an update has occured. The converse also applies as a consequence of rule 2.
• 8. Incorrect word guesses also count as losing a life.
• 9. Words must be 5 or more letters. If the word is exactly 5 letters and the last letter is S, the first four letters must not make a standard english word.
• 10. Words must be standard english, and cannot be proper nouns.