Medieval Pack II: A Call to Arms

[mhaupert]

Outstanding!

I've been a die-hard civ fanatic since the dawn of civ back in the early 90's. Of all the civ variations I've been addicted to, this one has got to be the most consumer sensitive product since the unix empire suite. Wess, I will most certainly send you a check. Your efforts in relegating the future Pol Pot dictators to the harmless basement and back-room computers is a social service indeed! It takes one to know one .

[Myrddin]

Some issues from the pre-18/7 update

Slaves
I ended up with slaves post 1820, as I could still build berserkers

Spies
I had 100% success in stealing technology - never failed, never caught - was I just lucky?

Negative poulation in captured city
Seems to occur in about half the captured cities, worst I have seen is -1.3 million

AI
Still not aggressive enough in war, and not inclined to make military agreements with other civilizations. It is not difficult to conquer the AI civs one by one even at Impossible - the first conquest is a challenge, the second difficult and then it becomes easy

Much improved from the original and I am now going to download the 18/7 version

[down th' pub]

Re: The Trade Route Problems

It's a problem I had with all the variants of the game (Original, MM2, Apolyton) it seems to happen with cities that have just expanded their area of influence. My only idea is that the number of specialists may affect whether that outer ring is actually being utilized. Thinking in Civ2 terms, if that tile isn't being worked.

I hope this makes sense and/or is helpful.

[Der PH]

Originally posted by Myrddin

Spies
I had 100% success in stealing technology - never failed, never caught - was I just lucky?

Yep!

Don't know how many of my spies have been lynched so far.

But in general they can walk through hostile countries much too easy without being noticed, if you avoid ending the movement on a highly frequented road.

I position spies, diplomats or other units, which can detect foreign stealth intruders, all around my civ, but the AI never seems to have such a defensive intelligence service.

[StarGazer]

Espionage and Counterespionage

ESPIONAGE

Does it really cost an AI civ 2,000 gold to steal an Advance from my civ? I know what your MM2 Main Readme file says, WES, but it seems inconceivable that an AI civ would want to spend that amount of gold for one of my Advances, especially since for the last several hundred turns I have ALWAYS given them an Advance when they asked for one, either a tech that leads to the one they asked for or a tech that they are working on or even the tech that they asked for.

It's now in the late 1800s, and I'm so far ahead of the four other civs in all respects that they will never catch up. My civ has peace treaties and trade pacts with them all, and they all love my civ -- well, that's what the Diplo Manager tells me, anyway. The fact that one of them just stole a tech from me -- in Washington, D.C. of all places -- tells me otherwise. My goals again are simply to win the Science Victory and to learn the game (including how this 7/18 update plays).

What are the differences in success rates between a Spy and a Secret Agent? The 7/18 GL doesn't say.

COUNTERESPIONAGE

In Civ II, if I remember correctly, I countered espionage by building a diplomat in each of my cities. The presence of a diplomat lessened the chances that a spy would be successful. I can find incredibly little information in the CTP2 game manual or in the Official Strategy Guide about how to conduct counterespionage the most efficiently. Some questions about this:

Which is the more effective COUNTERespionage agent: the Diplomat or the Secret Agent? The Secret Agent's vision is better, but it costs much more to support.

To prevent espionage agents from entering my civ's territory (by land), do I really have to build a line of counterespionage agents on the borders?

I see no viable means of preventing AI espionage agents from entering my civ's territory from along the coasts. So that would mean, I guess, placing counterespionage agents around each of my cities, say, one to each of the four sides. Or would simply having a Secret Agent in each city be effective, since it can see two spaces and thus detect the approach of the enemy?

This can get really complex, I'm beginning to see, because a lot would depend on the infrastructure -- roads, railroads, maglevs, or lack thereof.

Well, the fact that this spy (or whatever) was successful in stealing one of my Advances shook me a bit, since it came as a complete surprise -- not wholly unpleasant, I might add, since it revealed another aspect of the game and created a new challenge.

Anyway, I would welcome any help, either posted here or sent to me via email, about how to counter espionage the most effectively. THANKS!

[Gen.Dragolen]

Well it finally happened...

Wes,

I finished my first game with the 18July01 files the other night. And it turned into a diplomatic victory of all things.

The game was set up as VH, 8 civs, RB, pollution on, blood lust off, large map and plentiful trade goods. I finished 17 wonders and 5 feats in the process. I was well into the modern age while the closest AI civ was in the Industrial Age. I was able to get started on the Central Matter Decompiler wonder at the end of the game.

There were a couple of glitches though:
1. The teleporting nobles. No big deal as they never want to be cooperative until you have something they want.
2. No male portrait for the Egyptians. Got Cleopatra and that was it. If the coding for the pictures isn't in an .slc file, please let me know and I'll fix it.
3. Still having problems maintaining a military because of upkeep. Not sure if that's because of how I place cities or the costs are still a little high. Should have a better idea after a couple of more games.

I have a couple of suggestions for future improvements in the diplomacy model:
1. Add the option to request that an AI civ change it's stance towards another AI civ. I vaguely recall that this worked in Civ2. Could lead to more interesting options like playing one civ against another or allow you to protect another without needing an alliance.
2. Need personality files for the Barbarians. It would be useful to be able to talk to a Barbarian leader. You could buy them off and maybe use them against another civ. Not to mention it would work for when cities revolt and go barbarian.

I have one other change I want to try. Since I always seem to outdo the other civ's in technology by about 1600-1700 AD and it is too slow to do all the research myself, I'm going to see what happens if I push the game start date back to 5000BC. Being a history buff, I find that the timelines are skewed for the earliest developements like trade, religion, astronomy, etc... because of game mechanics.

The Egyptians had kings starting around 5000BC, along with fired pottery, and had religion and writing around 3100BC. I'm thinking that the extra 1000 years (about 40 turns) might make it more interesting since I won't be able to have a technology advantage all the time.

[Gen.Dragolen]

Re: Espionage and Counterespionage

...
Which is the more effective COUNTERespionage agent: the Diplomat or the Secret Agent? The Secret Agent's vision is better, but it costs much more to support.

...

I see no viable means of preventing AI espionage agents from entering my civ's territory from along the coasts. So that would mean, I guess, placing counterespionage agents around each of my cities, say, one to each of the four sides. Or would simply having a Secret Agent in each city be effective, since it can see two spaces and thus detect the approach of the enemy?

...

Anyway, I would welcome any help, either posted here or sent to me via email, about how to counter espionage the most effectively. THANKS!

Stargazer,

I would suggest keeping several spies from the Renaissance Age and to post in the cities nearest to your enemy. Keep one in reserve in case they send one in by boat elsewhere along your coast. That way you can see them coming and use the "Sue" enemy operatives to eliminate or just let the garrison kill them. I usually keep spies in my own country since they are cheaper to support and use the James Bond units on foreign territory.

If you don't have the capacity to make spies, any invisible unit should do. I love using Corporate Branches on the unsuspecting AI civ's and they can also see spies and secret agents, etc... having a fast mover combat unit nearby completes the team.

I have had the AI rape my technology a couple of times when they discovered that I had an out of the way city without a spy to protect it. And yes, it can really make life difficult when they steal something really useful and turn it into lots of newer combat units than those you have... Just have to make a seamless defense for them to go against. Since I started using this strategy, I don't have the AI's stealing from me.

Good hunting.

[Der PH]

Re: Espionage and Counterespionage

Originally posted by StarGazer

In Civ II, if I remember correctly, I countered espionage by building a diplomat in each of my cities. The presence of a diplomat lessened the chances that a spy would be successful.

In the original CTP2 it is the same, I think.

In a very advanced game (genetic age) my neighbours, the Mexicans, sent masses of spies into my civ. Due to a well developed railway system I couldn't stop them before they arrived at my cities, but they always failed in stealing technologies, when they tried this at cities with one of my spies inside, even before I built the secret service (or whatever its name is in English. I'm playing the german version) wonder.

Playing MM2 I have not been able to confirm this observation yet, because generally I am the one who needs stealing techs, but I don't know why this should have been changed.

[Rhuarc]

I'm BACK!!!

Hi everyone!! I"M BACK!!!!! I was out of the loop for a while with work and everything :banned: but now I'm back! Wes, just a few questions for you. I know earlier you had mentioned butting BlueO's city expansion mod into the MedPack. Is that still the plan or has that idea been scrapped? Also, the more I keep reading about the MedPack2 versus Civ3, I am almost beginning to believe that CTP2 + MedPack2 is going to be better than Civ3!! However, I am sure that our fearless leader Wes will be able to fix Civ3 if it isn't what we want! Well, I am going to download the latest updates and try playing them tonight, see how it goes. I'll be seeing all you guys around!

[Rhuarc]

Message Boxes?

Wes, one more question for you. Is there any way to bring back the way the messages were displayed from CTP? I really liked the way the buttons were on the side and you could tell just by looking at the buttons what was going on. I know everyone might not want those, so I am just wondering if you think it would be possible to bring those back and implement them correctly. And perhaps if there is enough interest putting them into the MedPackII. Thanks you!!

[Locutus]

Ruarc,

I know earlier you had mentioned butting BlueO's city expansion mod into the MedPack. Is that still the plan or has that idea been scrapped?

Dale mentioned it just a few posts ago, he (or someone else) will get working on it when he has the time.

Also, the more I keep reading about the MedPack2 versus Civ3, I am almost beginning to believe that CTP2 + MedPack2 is going to be better than Civ3!!

You're only beginning to believe that? Well, you're not very fast, now are you?

About the message system: if you give me the source code of both CtP1 and CtP2 I'll fix that for you, otherwise it would be a sheer impossible task (unless someone accidentally discovers some forgotten option or trick ala the one that allows PBEM and Hotseat).

[WesW]

Well, there have certainly been a lot of posts and requests here the last couple of days.

Rhuarc, I do not know if you can change the button configuration or not. I think there were some files in Ctp1 which someone modified to change the appearance of some screens. I have just adpated to the current system myself.
Dale will be working on the city expansion code shortly.

I went back and looked at the GL, and it does not give the relavent info on the spy units like it should, so I have re-worked the GL entries. Here is what the file looks like now.

[UNIT_SECRET_AGENT_STATISTICS]
Steal Tech: 35% random, 25% specific
Incite Revolution: 25%
Investigate City: 75%
Plant Nuke: 25%
Defend vs Spies: 25%
[END]

I do not know if the defend against spies setting takes .25 away from the success setting, or 25% from it. (For stealing tech this would reduce the success rate to 27% or so.) I hope that it does the latter.

I decided to reduce the steal tech success rate of the Spy from 90% to 75%. There have been Ctp1 games when I have stolen all the tech I could to stay up, and the 2000 gold cost has to be the same for all units. The game did not have a unit capable of stealing tech before the Secret Agent originally, so the same cost for it and the Cyber Ninja was no big deal. I increased the success rate of the Spy to account for the fact that you have less gold in the early part of the game.

Gen Dragoleon's strategy is about the same one I use as far as a counter-espionage network. It is hard to keep spies from getting to your cities, but you can thwart them pretty effectively suing this strategy.
Diplomats do not defend against spies.

As far as the leader pics, there is only one for each civ.

As far as the diplomacy suggestions, there is no way to write slic code to add a new diplomacy option to the game. Dale re-activated a couple of things that were cut from the released version of the game, but what you are asking for is totally different.
As far as barbarians, if you could negoitate and reason with them, they would no longer be barbarians, at least in the concept that they currently hold. Nordicus has done some of this for Ctp1, but imo the barbarians are like a force of nature, meant to annoy you and keep you on you toes in the beginning of the game.

The Large civs version of the game only changes a half-dozen or so files, so it is not necessary to update it each time I update the regular mod. You do need to follow the instructions as far as reloading slic and using modswapper even if you play the large civs version.
The Large civs version is not independent of the regular mod. It uses all but a few of the same files as the regular version. I waited until I had those files in their final state, then I changed them to fit the large civs settings. Now when I update, I update both versions without having to update the Large civs separately. I hope this makes more sense. Suffice to say that when I update the regular mod, I also update the Large civs version.

[Bluevoss]

Quick qestion for Wes,

I'm in the modern era. I've seen (in new cities) that you can still build shrines, but can no longer produce Arenas (thats fine). However, it seems that you still need to build a bracillia (sp?) before you have access to parks and movie houses.

I live in what can only be considered a late city in the real world (Orlando Florida, which boomed only during the last 20 years). We don't have any massive cathedrals to make the locals happy. They couldn't care less. However, we got movie theaters all over, and a couple of parks that help, too.

I would assume that a "new" city will have a movie theater sooner than a chuch.

Its like a sci-fi book I read long ago, where a city gets attacked from space. The author notes that the city struggled to repair its essential services: water, power, and cable.

[Cube]

Bluevoss the reason you can't build the arena is, because you need, a theater to build it, and you need a shrine to build a theater. i don't like the fact you need the bascillica for the movie theater, but I think this was done so that you would build the happiness building in succesion.

Wes,
I have added 3 new buildings to the game blacksmith, electric plant, and skyscrapers. i got the graphics from harlans building pictures. the blacksmith adds 5% production, the electric plant adds 10% production and 5% commerce, and skyscrapers add 15% commerce and has 0 upkeep like the other gold buildings. the electric plant is requred by buildings that require power the tv station, the movie palace, the reasearch center, the behavioral mod center, the E-bank, The robotic plant, and skyscrapers. building like the airport, and the hospital have back up generators, so you don't need the electric plant to build them. I'm also thinking of adding the library to the game, and having it give 10% science, and making it a perequisite for the university. If you want I can send you my MM2_buildings.txt file so you can add them to the mod.

[Gen.Dragolen]

Debriefing after 2 full games

Wes,

Well I'm at 1500 AD on my third game at VH, and I have been doing some comparisons between the different AI civ's behaviors, especially with regard to the science. They now have the diplomacy and combat coming along nicely (they are not just annoying, they are f*&%ing*? annoying now: I just love it) with they constantly trying to use diplomacy to string you along until they can attack in force or to pirate each other's trade on your soil.

However, on the science front, they are still sorely lacking. This is both in terms of using the improvements and in buildings. I need to check if it is because of the personalities settings that one will ignore commerce and go for population, or if the tile improvements are too expensive when they maintain large armies. It would be sweet if they science was calculated including the Trade. Ideas got around more because of traders than any other reason in the past. (just preaching to the choir now I think)

I did see one weird thing happen in this last game though: my immediate neighbours under Otto von Bismark had a spectacular advance in technologies and standing on the scoreboard: they first developed Mechanical Advantage (I already had it for about 200 years) and got the longbowmen, and then shortly after they got the Gunpowder Elite units as well. Not sure how they pulled this off, but the upshot was that they shot to the top of the heap, only to be able to build one cannon unit per city. It was a nasty surprise on my initial assault on one city. But they still fell to massed seige engines and pikemen. At least Otto was talking all nice and diplomatic as his Knights were finishing off my Cavalry Scouts which started that war. So what if I have 1/4 of the world map's landmass under my domain... They were spoiling for a fight by trying to break out of their small corner of "my" continent... pesky settlers.

The one thing they missed in this game was the ability to influence the diplomatic stance of one nation against another AI civ as they had in Civ2. That would be perfect with the MM2 changes.

I was hoping that there was some way to make changes to the timeline settings to start at 5000BC or earlier to see it that would help the AI's compete, but that doesn't appear to be possible without changing the source code in ctp2.exe. This is already so much better than the original CTP2, but we can make it better yet.

Wes, here are my two cents for the immediate concerns:
1. if the Stone Age-Bronze Age technologies were about 15% cheaper to research, and
2. if the Industrial Age and later units upkeep about 15 - 25% less for the regular units, which should get the AI's to about the same levels as actual history.
3. if you add more buildings to the list, then you will need to decrease the costs for all the buildings to allow for them.

I'll try my hand at the changes and see what happens.