Preliminary release of Mars scenario (Take 2)

[Immortal Wombat]

And the thread starter has only made 47% of the posts.

[J Bytheway]

I'm sure I can push it past 50% with little trouble. I'm just too dedicated - that's the problem. I tried not to chain-post too much ...

[drAgON1]

Ok I have it up and running! I have been playing in hotseat to test things out. This scenario is really cool so far and with little work it will kick a$$! I can not wait to test it out on mutiplayer. A few things so far :river movement is messed up(I think) and rovers seems abit strong,however I have not really tested out war yet. Also rover have the build city sign but that is not a big deal because it does not mess up the game. I will continue to post my ideas and any errors. I do hope we can work on some ai files and such in the future.

THANK YOU J for the scenario!

[J Bytheway]

Thanks for the vote of confidence

River movement is not messed up - rivers now always halve the movement cost on their terrain. Have you ever followed a river through a jungle? It ain't easy... Similar changes have been made to road, railroad, etc. (Ever been on a mountain railway - that's not quick either ).

I also think rovers might be too strong - all the military is totally untested and will likely require considerable balancing. That's the main reason I want to playtest.

It's very strange that rovers have the build city sign - I'll look into that.

[J Bytheway]

OK - found the rover build city thing. They had the SETTLE_LAND flag - I have no idea why...

I've got a newer version in progress now. I've actually changed some of the terrain (), but nothing significant yet, so I won't post an update (it would only lead to confusion).

[drAgON1]

The reason i could not get it to work is because there was not any directions on puting the folders in the proper place. Why did you put change debugslic to yes?(that might be ok) but it also said put total civ to 32(that will not work without ai).That will help out dummies like me. The reason I got it to work is because I learn how to make a scenario when I realized what I had to do.Thanks again. Also I think I could helpout alot with improving your scenario...I will keep you posted

[drAgON1]

Also if anyone would like to test out an e-mail Mars scen I am up for it. Hubbartdcv@aol.com

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by drAgON1
The reason i could not get it to work is because there was not any directions on puting the folders in the proper place.

Where exactly did you have problems? Did you unzip them into the wrong place? Could I help by making the instructions clearer in any particular place?

Why did you put change debugslic to yes?(that might be ok)

So that the messages work properly. Otherwise they say things like:

"[player.1.name] has completed the [wonder.1.name]"

but it also said put total civ to 32(that will not work without ai).

This is because non-barbarian AIs are easier to kill off in SLIC. When a city revolts, in order to avoid crashes I kill the city in SLIC (it's harsh, but it's the only solution I could find to the crashes). If this were a barbarian city then it's units will survive because barbarian units don't need maintainance, but an other AI will die.

That will help out dummies like me.

What will?

Also I think I could helpout alot with improving your scenario...I will keep you posted

Thanks!

Also if anyone would like to test out an e-mail Mars scen I am up for it. Hubbartdcv@aol.com

Well, I certainly am . I'll send you an e-mail.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by J Bytheway
This is because non-barbarian AIs are easier to kill off in SLIC. When a city revolts, in order to avoid crashes I kill the city in SLIC (it's harsh, but it's the only solution I could find to the crashes). If this were a barbarian city then it's units will survive because barbarian units don't need maintainance, but an other AI will die.

John did you tried the function:

* VOID KillUnit(unit)
Kill the unit.

(From the slic1 describtion on Locutus' homepage)
And the container:

* city.location

To kill all the remaining units of the Barbs ant the city location?

-Martin

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
John did you tried the function:

* VOID KillUnit(unit)
Kill the unit.

Yeah, I could have done that - but I had a lot of things on my mind at the time and it was supposed to just be a temporary solution so I was lazy. I should have learnt by now that laziness always has a bigger price later - but that lesson never seemed to penetrate. I'm sure I'll get around to it soon.

[drAgON1]

Update

Error: Even when I have the tech trade, the adviser still says I should rescreach trade
Thoughts:1) I do not think explorers should be able to see slavers..ect. This really makes it hard to slave.
2)Also I think there should be more government options earlier. Feudalism is a real gold killer...trade is almost useless with this government( this has not been fully tested).Markets would help this out(Once again this is using Feudalism).This is really the only government I have played so far. So I am assuming trade is much better with other governments. Also I do not really think that you should have lowered the goods value...or is that only with this government? My points is I think that a civ with jungle will win over other civs due to the high grow and gold... at least balance forest out with jungle. The food is alright although that really hinders a civ with grassland. Perhaps you should posts all the vaules of the terrain here.
3)I think the defence vaule of the hover should be lowered as well as the prodution cost raised a bit. they really make mobs useless.Think about it the movement is much better as well as the attack. Lower defense to 1.The rangers defense should also be lowered(I am not 100% on this yet) I think 2 would be good on it. production cost seems good so far with the ranger unit.

Improvement: I really like the lowered values of roads and farms etc...but you think that balances out the gold with jungle?(and food)Also it really does make better sence to be able to farm hills and mountains.Being able to view where you were attacked is great. The random placement charts that pop up are very nice. Being able to add settlers to city is a smooth touch( can you post the rules with that also), however i have not tested that fully either.
All in all this will take some time to balance things out but I am sure you knew that.

[J Bytheway]

Re: Update

Feedback! THANK YOU!

Originally posted by drAgON1
Error: Even when I have the tech trade, the adviser still says I should rescreach trade

Yes, I noticed this and am confused. I think it's just counting trade as the advance in the position that trade used to be in - which means you would now have to research (*goes to check data files*) religion, I think. Can you check what happens when you get religion.

Thoughts:1) I do not think explorers should be able to see slavers..ect. This really makes it hard to slave.

I agree. Changed.

2)Also I think there should be more government options earlier.

Republic is not far away, only two techs after Feudalism, and Democracy is only three (four?) techs after that.

Feudalism is a real gold killer...trade is almost useless with this government( this has not been fully tested).Markets would help this out(Once again this is using Feudalism).This is really the only government I have played so far. So I am assuming trade is much better with other governments.

You can have more trade routes between cities in other government, so they are indeed better. Feudalism is supposed to have fairly bad science and gold, but from what you say perhaps it's too bad - I think I'll leave it for further playtesting for the moment. When I've played I always switch out into Republic and then Democracy as soon as possible so as to speed science.

Also I do not really think that you should have lowered the goods value...or is that only with this government?

It is not only with that government. But rubies and diamonds retain their old values.

My points is I think that a civ with jungle will win over other civs due to the high grow and gold... at least balance forest out with jungle.

I made jungle better because it's difficult to get the jungle terraforming tech. How about if I increase the value of trade goods from terrains like grassland, hills up to about 8, and forest to 6 or 7... That way the jungle civ will lose out on trade.

The food is alright although that really hinders a civ with grassland.

I don't follow - is this because grassland has no gold? I assumed this would be OK, since grassland is (relatively) cheap to mine.

Perhaps you should posts all the vaules of the terrain here.

They're in the Great Library, do I really have to post them here? I suppose it wouldn't be hard to copy/paste the values out of the GL but it would be a long post.

3)I think the defence vaule of the hover should be lowered as well as the prodution cost raised a bit. they really make mobs useless.Think about it the movement is much better as well as the attack. Lower defense to 1.

OK, I agree there. Defense lowered to 1. Shield cost 250->300. But don't forget that its hit points are lower than a mob's (if only by a little).

The rangers defense should also be lowered(I am not 100% on this yet) I think 2 would be good on it. production cost seems good so far with the ranger unit.

OK, I've set it to 2.

Improvement: I really like the lowered values of roads and farms etc...but you think that balances out the gold with jungle?(and food)

Again, that's because jungles are unimproveabale and difficult to terraform. They're good in the early game but annoying later because you can't get rid of them. Nevertheless, perhaps they are too good. I'll leave it for a while yet and see.

Also it really does make better sence to be able to farm hills and mountains.Being able to view where you were attacked is great. The random placement charts that pop up are very nice. Being able to add settlers to city is a smooth touch( can you post the rules with that also)

You can add a settler to any city of size 2-6.

, however i have not tested that fully either.
All in all this will take some time to balance things out but I am sure you knew that.

I did indeed. Thanks for all the comments. I've an exam this afternoon, so I'm a little busy but after that I'll package and upload the new version. Please keep the feedback coming.

I'll be free of exams after this one, and I think I'm now able to play internet games, so I'd like to try to get an internet game of this working. Interested?

[drAgON1]

Re: Re: Update

[QUOTE] Originally posted by J Bytheway
Republic is not far away, only two techs after Feudalism, and Democracy is only three (four?) techs after that.

A very improtant part of the game is options.Take Regular CTP of example. If player1 uses Theo and player2 uses Monarchy the result is player1 winnner! My point they both could be used if they were a little more balanced.( Theo...more war discontent?weaker units? less gold bonus? or Monarchy with better gold or even much cheaper(lower production for faster building) knights? Do you want to give players options or just have one government route?
You can have more trade routes between cities in other government, so they are indeed better. Feudalism is supposed to have fairly bad science and gold, but from what you say perhaps it's too bad - I think I'll leave it for further playtesting for the moment.
Yeah I am not saying change this yet but I want you to think about this- You put in more city improvements but you have lowered trade values and no markets(banks coast more to up keep, and you have to build them sooner and in more cities to make gold), so I really do not want to hurt my science or start losing gold so I do not even bother building very many buildings.

I made jungle better because it's difficult to get the jungle terraforming tech. How about if I increase the value of trade goods from terrains like grassland, hills up to about 8, and forest to 6 or 7... That way the jungle civ will lose out on trade.

Ok lets say 3 civ in this world(this is just what I see at the start) 1 in moslty jungle 2 mostly forest 3 mostly plains/ mountains.Civ1 gets (jungle) food 10 production 20 and gold 5. Civ2 (forest) food 10 production 20 gold 0.Civ3 food 5 prodution 10 gold 0.Terraform options: Civ1,roads-150. Civ2, roads-150,you also said you can terraform forest sooner than jungle.Civ3, if they farm(cost 150)adds 5 food or mine(cost 240) adds 5 production(right?) 5 gold and roads cost 45. Ok you said the simple solution would be to mine the plains/w mine (F=5 P=15 G=5) now compare that to jungle(F=10 P=20 G=5). Ok I think you on the right trail, but they need to be more balanced.Now lets look into the furture a little Civ 1 is crawling with roads(they do have hight enough production 150 is Very easy to spend) and cities just anywhere( no reall need to look for sources of gold its every where!) no trade(the time spent is really useless because new cities mean more gold,prod,etc)They can afford to make city improvements for bigger city.Science is doing good defense is great(rovers 2 to 3 turns ,rangers would take 5 to 6 i think ok) They Rock!
Civ2 - yes they have roads and rovers roaming science is really slow dispite they have trade (really is useless without banks) they cant afford too many city improvements untill they get banks and take the time to build caravans.. they would be a far second.
Civ3- oh where to start..ok they get lower production to start so it is harder to tarrform (even though tile improvements are cheaper) I think a good way to balance things out would be to make it easier to travel across plains(Yeah I know it is, but is it really!?). I mean most units(most important-Settler) can still only walk one step on plains as jungle or forest . If only Civ3 could travel faster without spending too much production they could travel to some better land (say jungle).Or at least they would need a bigger city area with more farms and mine ect. Or perhaps is it is real cheap to terraform plains I guess that could balance things out later.

I don't follow - is this because grassland has no gold? I assumed this would be OK, since grassland is (relatively) cheap to mine.
See above



OK, I've set it to 2.
hehe I was not real sure about that yet.


Again, that's because jungles are unimproveabale and difficult to terraform. They're good in the early game but annoying later because you can't get rid of them. Nevertheless, perhaps they are too good. I'll leave it for a while yet and see.
Once again do we really want to limit players option?


You can add a settler to any city of size 2-6.
perhaps a bit strong Not Tested Yet.

I've an exam this afternoon, so I'm a little busy but after that I'll package and upload the new version. Please keep the feedback coming.
Ok but maybe you should wait a little.
I'll be free of exams after this one, and I think I'm now able to play internet games, so I'd like to try to get an internet game of this working. Interested? Yes VERY much.

[drAgON1]

Oh crap, I really messed up that post. How can I fix it? I hope you can understand it.

[J Bytheway]

You can fix it by clicking the edit button just above it on the right (next to 'reply with quote')

Edit: Just realised that that might not answer your question... in the message you have to put all the bits I wrote inside [ quote] and [ /quote] brackets seperately. To save typing it's easier to use the alternative [ q] and [ /q] (all of those should have the spaces omitted).