design versus coding

[Velociryx]

I disagree with the entire premise. What you are essentially saying is that without deadlines and schedules, the project is doomed to fail. The implication inherent IN that premise is that the schedules and deadlines themselves are what motivates the team to completion.

We've been at it for more than a year now, no mention of either, and we're still here (check the alpha build thread, btw, for our first ever screen shot).

IMO, "Project Management" is more of an accounting function than a managerial function, and it works well when everybody is punching the clock. The company has X resources to complete the project, and needs to get it done in Y timeframe.

That works.

When you take one (or both) of those constraints away (no budget, so there's no money to lose, no particular NEED to finish the project in a given amount of time), suddenly the whole project management thing doesn't work so well.

Ultimately, we might disintegrate, and if we do, you will have been proven right. But if we don't....if we succeed doing it this way (which is, admittedly unorthodox from the "classical design" perspective), will it not suggest that we have found another (valid) way?



-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

A question for you, GP:

If schedules and "proper" project management are motivationally essential to finishing this project, and we've gotten by without either for more than a year, how have we survived this far, and what has been our motivation?



-=Vel=-

[Leland]

I hope you don't mind if I join in...

The impression I have about computer game development is that it's kind of a hybrid between an "artistic" endeavour like writing a book or composing music, and an "engineering" project like most software projects. I think that the software engineering aspect benefits greatly from proper project management, but the artistic side doesn't really fit into the same mechanical mold. Weeding out bad ideas, coming up with good ideas, balancing, rethinking stuff that doesn't work, brainstroming, etc. are activities that take the time they take and can't be forced.

I gather that in Candle'Bre Vel is the person driving this creational activity, and someone else is mainly responsible for the coding and implementation. Correct? If so, perhaps GPs comments could be directed to that person. (Or figure out who that person might be, if none exists yet.)

Just my 0.02€

[TCO]

Agreed, Lel. If Vel wants to dream without a program that is fine. But the software part and the overall project would benefit from it. Heck, even things as simple as knowing that you need to attract volunteers more in one area at different times in the course of the project.

[BigRich@home]

A couple of questions:

GP: How would you set about recruiting volunteers? At the moment we're sprucing up the website and posting fairly regular screenshots and updates here - although I have to admit we did let that slide for a while. I'm sure Vel will chip in if I've missed anything but they're the main points. What else could we be doing? What else should we be doing? Please don't read this as a flippant reply - any advice would be most welcome.

More generally, if you have a group of volunteers, each knowing they have a task to do and each showing tangible evidence of moving that task steadily forward, then what next? Do formal schedules and deadlines really help? Again please do not take this as a flippant response. I fully agree that doing the whole thing haphazardly with no clear goals or end points would be bad, but that simply isn't the case here.

We know where we are with the game and perhaps more importantly we've just reviewed what additional pieces need to be tidied up before we can release the Beta. And for what it's worth those pieces were chosen for their ease of finishability (sp?) , with the idea being to work on the other pieces whilst we're getting feedback from said Beta.


Rich.

[Velociryx]

First, welcome Leland! You need never ask if you’re allowed to join in….just pull up a chair and join us! And don’t mind me and GP….we go back a good ways and have been having the same basic discussion since almost day one—which I enjoy, and in fact, which I need! (I think he’s secretly amazed that we’re still here since we’re not doing it the “proper” way, but also cheering us on cos we’re underdogs, and who doesn’t love that?!)

Second, I think there is at least some level of misunderstanding on this issue, and it is my hope that what follows will clarify that.

No. We do not make use of “proper” project management techniques. There are no firm schedules in this group. No constant monitoring of our progress. No demands of “total man hours remaining” from various groups.

Such techniques are useful if you have limited resources and/or a limited timeframe in which to complete a given task (time/accounting framework) (we need to complete project X before dollars Y run dry or the company will go broke!). Neither of those conditions hold true for us. Being volunteer driven, we’re not spending any coin on paychecks, and since we don’t have any investors to please (or a publisher), we don’t have to listen to their rants about getting the game ready by the Christmas selling season. So what’s the rush? Why not take the time and churn out something that’s QUALITY? (or are we so used to the usual slop that it now makes us salivate, Pavlovian-style?)

It cannot be argued that project management is needed from a motivational point of view, either. “Hex, we absolutely need a commitment from you for graphics x, y, and z by next Tuesday, we CANNOT miss this deadline!” (implication: you’re in trouble/off the project if you set us back or slow us down) <--Try that in a volunteer project you run sometime, and let me know the results. My guess: One less volunteer in your project. If your mileage varies, lemme know. Arbitrary deadlines are not motivating forces, ideas and people are motivating forces. I don’t consider myself a strong, overbearing leader, but we’ve got a kickin’ idea for a game. An idea that gets people jazzed up thinking and talking about it. So, my approach is more like: “man, wouldn’t it be cool if we could see what X, Y, and Z would look like together?” And the people who have the ability to make that happen go out and do it, cos it really *would* be cool to see what that looks like together. Not because I’m the iron dictator who said so, but because the game would be better for it. Having done it the “proper” way (on other projects) and the way we’re doing it now, I can report with absolute certainty which works better. The team we have now is motivated by the game, not by the schedule. If it were otherwise, then we (without a schedule) would not be here having this conversation. If it were as GP indicates, “dreaming without a program” then the screenshot I posted yesterday from the latest alpha build would not, could not exist!

But it does, and yet, despite this evidence that we’re making steady progress, we’re “dreaming” and deemed incapable of finishing the project.

Finally, just because we’re not doing it the “proper way” does not mean we have no plan whatsoever.

We know where we are in broad terms (again, not specific man hours because, given the nature of the project, that data is unimportant for us), and we know what needs doing. We have prioritized task lists so that certain things happen before other things, and honestly, that’s all we really need. To get more involved than that is to needlessly complicate the process. Some people might get off on that, but it’s not our bag.

I said from day one that we were going to go about things in our own way. That has held true.

We have and we are.

It’s working for us (much to the chagrin of some, apparently ), and I am happy to be able to report that. (and frankly, given the steaming piles of *crap* that get churned off the gaming assembly lines each year—interrupted by the occasional gem—I’m rather surprised that there’s a cry to use the “tried and true” methodologies at all, when it is blindingly apparent that those methodologies themselves are at least partly responsible for giving us the aforementioned steaming piles of crap. IF we were doing this with the stated goal of making a steaming-pile-of-crap-game, we coulda rushed any ol’ thing out by last Christmas and told you guys to suck it up, and if that were the case, I’d be all for doing it “their way,” but that’s not what we’re about. It’s not why we’re here.

The crux of the matter is this: Since we’ve decided to do it “our own way” (for better or for worse), since we’re still here more than a year later having been DOING it our own way, since we’re making visible, tangible progress, AND since we’re well inside the parameters of the “normal” game development cycle, isn’t it just a shade early to be saying things like we’re “doomed to fail” or to imply that we don’t really know what we’re doing/haven’t learned anything from the last year and change?

Isn’t our continued existence and progress evidence to the contrary, or is it just a string of unbelievable beginner’s luck that has lasted for more than a year? If it’s the latter, take me to Vegas, baby!

-=Vel=-

PS: It would be a more accurate description to say that the “Courts of Candle’Bre” is evolving around us than to say that we’re making it. Yes, the nuts and bolts activities are the same with our group as they are with any other….we don’t have a magical code generator (well, we do, and his nickname is DK!).

Anyway, I’m sure the above doesn’t make much sense from the outside, but that’s an accurate portrayal of what’s occurring.

-V.

[TCO]

Originally posted by BigRich@home
A couple of questions:

GP: How would you set about recruiting volunteers? At the moment we're sprucing up the website and posting fairly regular screenshots and updates here - although I have to admit we did let that slide for a while. I'm sure Vel will chip in if I've missed anything but they're the main points. What else could we be doing? What else should we be doing? Please don't read this as a flippant reply - any advice would be most welcome.

More generally, if you have a group of volunteers, each knowing they have a task to do and each showing tangible evidence of moving that task steadily forward, then what next? Do formal schedules and deadlines really help? Again please do not take this as a flippant response. I fully agree that doing the whole thing haphazardly with no clear goals or end points would be bad, but that simply isn't the case here.

We know where we are with the game and perhaps more importantly we've just reviewed what additional pieces need to be tidied up before we can release the Beta. And for what it's worth those pieces were chosen for their ease of finishability (sp?) , with the idea being to work on the other pieces whilst we're getting feedback from said Beta.


Rich.

I think that one benefit is that you know what to beat the drums on more heavily. In terms of methods, probably just starting threads and getting Markos to post news items is the best. But specifically for what AREA needs help more would be better. Also, some volunteers may only be willing to work on one area, but some may be more flexible. With a schedule and some sort of progress reports, than you can go to work moving people to the areas that need it more. Also, for many people a schedule is a motivating tool. For one thing it means a more clear commitment to completion. And some volunteers prefer to work on a project that they think will get finished. Some don't care and just want to play. And perhaps that is even the case with Vel et al. However, I did not get that impression originally.

The subject is kinda branching a little bit. But you could also consiuder looking for voulnetteers outside of Poly. Other civ sites. Other gaming sites. Maybe even other sites that are functionally oriented (i.e. art sites or programming sites). EVen better, to be honest is gettin people that you know in real life. So Vel's friends in SC, for instance. I would concentrate on keeping the good voulnetters motivated and try to get quality rather than quantity. You are better off with one person who is seriously comitted to the project than ten who don't do much and perhaps even consume resources by needing updates a lot and pulling in different directions at the few times when they work at all.

Don't know if any of this applies to your project, but based on my knowledge of human character and of my own tendancies, I suspect I'm in the ballpark...

[TCO]

I don't think that games coming out are piles of crap. They are very intricate and quite well done. I think they are a step up from what was done 20 years ago.

[Cyclotron]

I'm not sure what a good response to this is, GP. We're making progress, and I think we are satisfied with what we are doing and confident as to what we will achieve. Your assumptions of why we're not "open" with you are interesting, but frankly we have better things to do than worry about spoon-feeding 'poly.

Your suggestions are welcome, but I think you should work on how you present them. Quite honestly, we don't need your self-admitted trolling, and its doubtful any project does.

[TCO]

Yes you do.

[Cyclotron]

Apparently, you don't know what a good response is either.

[child of Thor]

Well im going to hazard a guess that all the guys working on this project would much rather do it Vels way than the one being suggested by GP.
I know i would start to get a bit hacked off if i was getting my knuckles wrapped over something i was giveing my FREETIME up for
Velociryx I take my hat off to you for doing what you are doing and going about it in the way you are. I'm not impatient to see the end of this project - it will be like a fine wine, ready when it's ready(and i suspect all the better for it)

[TCO]

Part of the problem is that you all see planning and project management as equivalent to knuckle-rapping.

[BustaMike]

Originally posted by GP
Part of the problem is that you all see planning and project management as equivalent to knuckle-rapping.

The odd thing is... there wasn't a problem until you started posting

[ravagon]

Originally posted by GP
Part of the problem is that you all see planning and project management as equivalent to knuckle-rapping.

Part of the problem with "planning and project management" with an all-volunteer workforce, working in their spare time, is that you simply can't plan and manage in the same way or to the same extent as you might if this were not the case.
It gets done when it gets done, when the designated people manage to put the time and work in, and although it may not quite get done in the time frame in which one wishes to get it done, it will get done within the budget one allocates (if any) and won't lead to large-scale debts due to delays, nor will there be a need to compromise ones ideas simply in the name of getting it out on time.