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  • Clash Demo 7.2 is Here!

    Clash Demo 7.2 Features and Tips

    Demo 7.2 has several new features in the military and economic areas, and also some GUI tweaks and bug fixes. I'll give a brief list of what's new here, followed by a more detailed list of what the new features and GUI changes are. At the bottom I'll put a link so you can download the Demo 7.2 jar file.

    Features:
    Fortification and Siege Model
    Naval Combat
    Militia that automatically forms in a square to fight off invaders
    Economic Specials (Gold, Cloth, Tin, Salt)
    Merchants that automatically trade in these goods and others
    Jericho Scenario AI Improvements and "ladder" of difficulty

    GUI changes:
    More-streamlined movement interface
    Economic orders panel comes up alone, econ info available via a button
    tweaks to increase clarity on change province capital menu

    Bug Fixes:
    teleporting units and settlers
    intermittent crashes when econ windows left open

    Some more details...

    1. Fortification and Siege Model

    The demo has a first implementation of a fairly-detailed model of fortifications and sieges. One of Clash's goals is to have more-realistic outcomes in warfare and other areas. Walls give the defender a decided advantage, but can be overcome either by siege weapons or a significant manpower advantage of the attacker (numerical advantage needed increases with wall strength). Play the new SiegeWars scenario to see it in action! You can now build your own fortifications using the "Wall" button on the toolbar, and pay for the build similar to how you do for building roads. You can read more about walls and combat involving them in the Fortifications and Sieges thread.

    2. Naval Combat

    We've now got a naval combat model that allows for fleet battles. One fleet from each side is near the "toe" of Italy in the delenda scenario if you want to fight a quick naval combat. This will get a lot more exciting when the AI knows how to use naval power, hopefully in demo 8! For now, ships that are caught in port fight as low-value land units, and are usually destroyed unless their side has land superiority.

    3. Militia that automatically forms in a square to fight off invaders

    Your whole city of people won't just sit there like spineless wimps to be taken over by a few old arthritic soldiers anymore! If the relatively poor combat potential of a local militia could turn the tide of battle, the people will join in! At least, if they like you better than the other guys . If militia units were active in a combat, you'll be notified of it in the detailed combat report.

    4. Economic Specials (Gold, Cloth, Tin, Salt)

    Specials are scarce "strategic" resources that are found locally (gold, tin, salt), or specialty finished goods that can best be produced where the primary resources are (cloth). The people in your economy automatically use these locally as needed, and merchants can also redistribute these goods to wherever is most willing to pay for them! For now we only have special commodities in the delenda scenario. You can read more about special commodities and are future plans for them on the Economy page of the Clash web site. Actually, both specials and merchants were already in Demo 6, but hadn't made it back into Demo 7 until now.

    5. Merchants that automatically trade in these goods and others

    In accord with Clash's low-micromanagement philosophy, merchants automatically search the world for good trade deals. These can be involve any type of good, but frequently at least one leg of the trade involves a special commodity. That is because specials have a value that varies depending on whether they are locally available or not. The specials I have in so far, and the basic good they convert to are: Gold -> Services ; Tin -> Resources ; Cloth -> Manufactured Goods ; Salt -> Food

    6. More-streamlined movement interface

    We got several requests for improving the movement interface so that it involved fewer clicks, and provided a way to cancel the last move segment. When you are in move mode you can now exit by either hitting End Move, as before, or double-clicking on the last selected square for the move. This works even for single-square moves, just double-click the square you want to move to after entering move mode. If you make a mistake while entering moves, a right-click will delete the last movement segment. There is also a movement option we're testing that doesn't use the move button at all. If you want to enter a simple order to move to a square, you can select a TF in the Units Box and then double-click on the square where you want the TF to go. This should show a movement path as normal. If it doesn't (there are still some bugs in this approach) just enter the move normally.

    7. Jericho Scenario AI Improvements and "ladder" of difficulty

    In response to several comments on the Jericho AI, we have made a few simple changes. (Major changes will have to wait until the real AI gets going.) The results are that Jericho as Jericho is now even tougher to win. We'll see who's first to win it! There is also now a clear ladder of difficulty with the civs at the bottom of the choice screen being very easy to win with, and with the challenge increasing noticeably from the middle of the list on up. We have also made technological progress more achievable in the scenario, although it is still fairly slow.

    Finally, we added a credits screen so that all the people who have contributed to the demo can be recognized. I'll append the list here so everyone can get credit for their hard work! My sincere thanks to everyone who helped to bring this and our previous demos to life!

    Clash of Civilizations Demo 7.2 Credits

    Coders:
    Gary Thomas (Map, Technology, and Much Else)
    Laurent Di Cesare (Military Plus)
    Mark Everson (Economics Plus)
    Alex Zuroff (Overview Map)
    Vovan Sim (Bug fixing)

    Artists:
    sas [Stian Stokken] (Terrain)
    Fiera [Juan Gonzalez] (Units and Cities)

    Model Design:
    Military - Paul Krenske, Laurent Di Cesare, Gary Thomas
    Technology - Richard Bruns, Lord God Jinnai [Leejay Lockhart]
    Economy - Mark Everson
    Government (partially implemented) - Rodrigo Quijada

    Scenario and Tutorial Design:
    Gary Thomas, Mark Everson, Laurent Di Cesare, Dale [Kent]


    Tips:

    Play the Dawn Tutorial Scenario First if you're new to Demo 7. It has a wealth of info about the GUI and game mechanics. Questions about issues that are clearly explained in the tutorial will be met with: PTFT! (like RTFM)

    1. You shouldn't play Attila unless you have a fast computer or are patient. It can run quite slowly on older computers. We are looking into fixing that.

    2. At present you can't get the win notification in the Delenda or Jericho scenarios. So don't expect a victory message!

    3. In the Dawn tutorial scenario you'll frequently need to run five to ten turns after achieving all the objectives before you see the victory message. As before, the Dawn tutorial is the first thing you should play!


    The Team really wants to hear what you think about the Demo! Comments and criticisms are solicited. Before you type a lot of detailed comments, you might want to check and see which are already in the bug or feature requests lists near the top of this thread.

    Download Demo 7.2!

    [edit, change link]
    Last edited by Martin Gühmann; October 6, 2012, 19:22.
    Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
    A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
    Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

    Comment


    • Let me start with the positive comments.

      First I like the naval combat, so that I can now eradicate the Cartahanians, allmost.

      The resources are a nice addon, but it's hard to figure out what impace they have in the game. Some indication on the amount produced/nedded/used would help. Furthermore if resouces have strategic value, they are worth fighting for.

      Now to the less positive things:

      Well I have said it befor but I'll say it again, the numbers in the econ overview for walls, roads, technology, etc. makes no sence.

      The walls/siege thing doesn't work for strong defenders. A relative weak army can wear down a much stronger defender, by not using siege weaponds. It's slow, but eventually the attacker will win.

      The naval combat needs a beach assult for troops carried on ships, so that it is possible to take single square ilands, held by troops.

      And it is not particular realistic for two armies to pass each other with only light skirmishes. I have in several games had to chase a weak TF around the map, because he sliped throug my army. Another related isue is that I have often attacked a square with a lage army, only to se the enemy move around my forces. (eg. I atack to the NW, while the enemy moves S ending up at the square to the West of where my army was)

      When right-clicking to cancel roadbuilding the change capital menu comes up.

      Why not let all the relevant options apear on that right-click-menu.

      Wall building is not particular logical. First you click the Wall button, then you click on the square where you want the wall to apear, but nothing seems to happend, no indication whether or not the wall will be built, the only way to find out is to wait and see. And I have tried to build walls without success several times. Normally you will build only one wall, so why not let the buton stay down untill you have placed the wall and then go back up.
      Furthermore the build wall button should be grayed out when no wall building is available.

      Finaly I'd like to se some sort of entrechment option for troops. The Romans built fortifications around their camps at night.
      Visit my CTP-page and get TileEdit and a few other CTP related programs.
      Download and test SpriteEdit development build.

      Comment


      • Oh, and a note about the gui: D7.1 remembered the windows possitions from game to game, D7.2 saves them, but doesn't use them.
        Visit my CTP-page and get TileEdit and a few other CTP related programs.
        Download and test SpriteEdit development build.

        Comment


        • Hi Martin, thanks for the list of thoughts, observations, and bugs.

          Originally posted by Martin the Dane
          The resources are a nice addon, but it's hard to figure out what impace they have in the game. Some indication on the amount produced/nedded/used would help. Furthermore if resouces have strategic value, they are worth fighting for.
          The specials do have a large value to the economy which you can see from the brief merchant report. They can easily increase your economic output by 10 to 20%. However, as of now they are not required to build specific units. We will try to tie them in more strongly to the game strategy in the next demo. If you would like to read over the bit on specials and make suggestions in the Econ thread, that would be great.

          Well I have said it befor but I'll say it again, the numbers in the econ overview for walls, roads, technology, etc. makes no sence.
          I agree, but it will need to wait for the new econ interface. Although, I could make a patch suitable for being more meaningful on roads, walls, and perhaps a few other things. To you think this would be very valuable? Do remember that road segments on different types of terrain cost varying amounts, so if the econ interface were to show "roadbuilding units" it would have to be to some standard like for a road segment on flat terrain.

          The walls/siege thing doesn't work for strong defenders. A relative weak army can wear down a much stronger defender, by not using siege weaponds. It's slow, but eventually the attacker will win.
          Yeah, that's pretty bad... we didn't think through all the details in the model. And there are some things we knew weren't great but to do them right at first would have taken too long. I see that you have already put some of these issues in the Fortifications and Sieges thread. We can discuss all the proposed changes there so that we can get an improved model ready for the next demo.

          The naval combat needs a beach assult for troops carried on ships, so that it is possible to take single square ilands, held by troops.
          I'll put this in the feature list, but it doesn't seem critical at this point.

          And it is not particular realistic for two armies to pass each other with only light skirmishes. I have in several games had to chase a weak TF around the map, because he sliped throug my army. Another related isue is that I have often attacked a square with a lage army, only to se the enemy move around my forces. (eg. I atack to the NW, while the enemy moves S ending up at the square to the West of where my army was)
          These are good points, can you bring them up in the most recent Military thread? The first one we could probably make a design change right away. The reason we don't do the second one is we would need to have some pursuit AI which is not available yet. We would also need some special orders. You don't necessarily want your army pursuing another to the ends of the earth .

          When right-clicking to cancel roadbuilding the change capital menu comes up.
          Why not let all the relevant options apear on that right-click-menu.
          I think this one is already in the bug list. The reason we don't want to let everything appear on our right click menu is that there is a specific Road-building mode, and in that the left click is supposed to cancel just the last road segment. This is much better functionality than having to pick from a wide range of left-click options IMO. The implementation is there to do it right now, and it was working at one point, it's just it got broken and we haven't fixed it yet. I imagine we will have a bug-fix release out fairly shortly. Vovan has already fixed a few of the outstanding bugs.

          Wall building is not particular logical. First you click the Wall button, then you click on the square where you want the wall to apear, but nothing seems to happend, no indication whether or not the wall will be built, the only way to find out is to wait and see.
          Actually, this is not the way it works. First you select the square you intend to build walls in. Then you press the Wall button and select the type of walls. We do know the interface needs work to give the player feedback.

          Finaly I'd like to se some sort of entrechment option for troops. The Romans built fortifications around their camps at night.
          We have discussed that before, but it's not implemented yet. You could put a reminder in the military thread, and we could work out a spec and see if Laurent would implemented it. Mostly it is the interface difficulties that I think are the problem. But an order given to a unit that is just sitting in a square might be doable with the current interface.

          Oh, and a note about the gui: D7.1 remembered the windows possitions from game to game, D7.2 saves them, but doesn't use them.
          That feature broke very late, just before the release. Thanks for letting us know! We will fix it up soon.
          Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
          A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
          Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

          Comment


          • One point Mark wanted me to precise:

            The best scenario to check for militia is SiegeWars. It
            has been made to test both sieges and militia.
            You can have militia fighting for men in Minas Tirith if
            the opposing chariot attacks immediately (maybe move some of your armies northwest to be sure you don't overwhelm the chariot). You can also have militia fighting in most squares of the bridge, for either side, and in Minas Morgul, for either side (I once
            won thanks to human militia there).You will sometimes get some militia fighting at Mordor for the goblins.

            About walls:
            The walls in Delenda (and all other scenarii except Siegewars if you build them) are pretty useless because of their low defense value. They limit the damage but don't help a lot. Those in SiegeWars are much stronger. You can compare both scenarios and say if the behaviour in SiegeWars is correct for you (I made it so you shouldn't be able to win without building siege weapons - if you can I will have to tune things).
            I thought of greying the button when no walls were available and should do it. I also thought I needed an image to give feedback for wallbuilding but had no idea what to draw.
            Clash of Civilization team member
            (a civ-like game whose goal is low micromanagement and good AI)
            web site http://clash.apolyton.net/frame/index.shtml and forum here on apolyton)

            Comment


            • I updates the code so you can see walls that are being built and increased the walls defense value. The second part can be done if you open the .jar with winzip for instance and in military.xml, with a text editor, change the Wall defense value from 25 to something else (like 100 to get a big boost).
              I am not really happy with my wall being built image. I could think of nothing nice (tried a palissade being built but it didn't work), so anyone with ideas or drawing skills is welcome. Here is what I use:
              Attached Files
              Clash of Civilization team member
              (a civ-like game whose goal is low micromanagement and good AI)
              web site http://clash.apolyton.net/frame/index.shtml and forum here on apolyton)

              Comment


              • quote:
                When right-clicking to cancel roadbuilding the change capital menu comes up.

                Why not let all the relevant options apear on that right-click-menu.
                These were meant to be two seperate isues. Guess it should have been:
                Why not let all the relevant options apear on that right-click-menu, when not in movement or building mode.
                So Mark I mostly agree with you on that as it is.
                What I was thinking of was when you rightclick a province the menu would also display the Province and Civ Econ butons, etc.

                Although, I could make a patch suitable for being more meaningful on roads, walls, and perhaps a few other things. To you think this would be very valuable? Do remember that road segments on different types of terrain cost varying amounts, so if the econ interface were to show "roadbuilding units" it would have to be to some standard like for a road segment on flat terrain.
                Well if the units were some standard buildpoints, and the road or wall being built would show number of buildpoints needed to complete it, in some relevant display, maybe in the details view.

                The specials do have a large value to the economy which you can see from the brief merchant report. They can easily increase your economic output by 10 to 20%.
                Well then I guess I figured it out anyway. Just thought that this could not be it. I'm looking forward to when they will be required for unit building.

                Then to the walls issue:

                From LD's comment I can se that the walls are not fully implemented in the Delenda scenario. In the Lord of the Rings scenario my attacker takes heavy casulties while in Rome in Delenda the sieges take much longer time, with virtually no losses on either side. Would increasing wall strength make the atacker take more damage?

                I guess this belongs in the walls/siege thread so I'll continue there at some point in the near future.
                Visit my CTP-page and get TileEdit and a few other CTP related programs.
                Download and test SpriteEdit development build.

                Comment


                • A featue I think is missing is the ability to toggle the view of categories of items - e.g toggle viewing units so that you can better see what else is on the map (like roads).

                  I havn't looked hard at our graphics code,but this generally fairly easy to do so long as each thing being toggled is a separate image.

                  I had a go at the attilla scenario - and didnt get to see turn one finish, this isn't due to lack of machine resources, none were being used (no cpu or memory usage worth noting) It looks to me that there is a bug in the scenario, or a general bug that more often manifests in that scenario?

                  Comment


                  • Another gui thing that's missing is scrollbars. Especially on the economics screen and TF-Details window.

                    If there is more than 4 units in a TF, the overview information is ilegible, since the individual lines overlap.

                    On the economics view, the last couple of lines dissaperar if there is to many elements.
                    Visit my CTP-page and get TileEdit and a few other CTP related programs.
                    Download and test SpriteEdit development build.

                    Comment


                    • Another gui thing that's missing is scrollbars. Especially on the economics screen and TF-Details window.
                      Yes that's why you have a crappy reorder button in the econ windows. The whole econ UI badly wants recoding (unless you love spreadsheets).
                      Clash of Civilization team member
                      (a civ-like game whose goal is low micromanagement and good AI)
                      web site http://clash.apolyton.net/frame/index.shtml and forum here on apolyton)

                      Comment


                      • I've already put in a fix for the TF-overview detail thing, to stop the combat summary data being squashed at the top - using scroll bars if needed.

                        Comment


                        • Hey I can't even complain befor you guys have fixed the problem lol.

                          Laurent: I am a fan of spreadsheets. They are logical, they give you a nice overview, they telle you what you need to know, etc.. But I'm not so fond of the way they are implemented here, all-thogh it's far from the worst I've seen. An option to hide/show variouse parts would be nice. What about a treestructure? A thought just occured to me, if the variouse elements in the econ view are grouped in a colabsible structure, it would be possible to link this into reducing micromanagement.

                          Let me give an example:
                          If all military units were grouped under say Military, you could alocate a certain percentage to military, and the AI would then spend the alocated resources as it saw fit.
                          Same for infrastructure, technology, production etc.
                          Visit my CTP-page and get TileEdit and a few other CTP related programs.
                          Download and test SpriteEdit development build.

                          Comment


                          • Yes the tree structure is what we want. If you delve somewhere deep in the forum, there is an Econ GUI thread. I am too lazy to look for it now, but the idea was the same as yours. I think there are also some images, but it is not being coded now for lack of manpower.
                            Clash of Civilization team member
                            (a civ-like game whose goal is low micromanagement and good AI)
                            web site http://clash.apolyton.net/frame/index.shtml and forum here on apolyton)

                            Comment


                            • Clash Demo 7.2.1 is Out!

                              Clash Demo 7.2.1 is primarily a bug-fix release. Due to a lot of effort from the coding team, especially our two new programmers Vovan and LFS, we have been able to fix a good number of bugs in a short period of time. Those bug fixes, and a few new small feature implemetations made it worth releasing another version of Demo 7.2 so early. Here's what has changed:

                              1. Fix for road build delete. Right-click while in road mode now deletes the roads in the square clicked, rather than the last road segment. That gives the player fine control over which road segments to kill.

                              2. We updated the code for wall building. You will know build walls very similar to roads. Push the "Wall" button, select the type of wall from the box (there is only one type for now) and then click on any squares that you want to enclose with walls. The squares where walls are selected will show walls that are planned to be built. The wall-building image is blue because planned roads are blue too. We also increased the wall value in military.xml (4 times) so they are more effective. They are still far from as strong as those in the SiegeWars scenario, however.

                              3. Fixed the settings file bug, where the settings for window positions weren't carried over from game to game.

                              4. Bug number 153 - Next TF doesn’t automatically move the map so the
                              selected TF is visible. The next TF button now selects the next TF, and centers the
                              view on it.

                              5. Got rid of several bugs that prevented the Attila scenario from running more than one turn. It is still slow, but now it runs ok.

                              There were also several other bug fixes and minor tweaks.

                              Thanks for all the bug reports playtesters! We will continue to fix the most critical ones promptly, and handle the others as time allows. As usual, please let us know about any new bugs or feature requests.

                              -Mark

                              You can Download D7.2.1 Here.

                              If this is your first demo, read the Download instructions, but still use the file from the "Download D7.2.1" link!


                              [edit, remedial typing to help Mark tell left from right ]
                              Last edited by Mark_Everson; January 14, 2003, 08:47.
                              Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
                              A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
                              Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

                              Comment


                              • 1. Fix for road build delete. Left-click while in road mode now deletes the roads in the square clicked, rather than the last road segment. That gives the player fine control over which road segments to kill.
                                should be right click not left click (left click lays roads)

                                Comment

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