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  • #31
    Here is the plan for scenario 1 (your plan, I might add):

    Tutorial Scenario 1

    Start with a fixed map and settlers a la Civ as the focus. Here we will hit the first two “X”s in 4x, Explore and expand.

    1. Generate the map, which we can already do no problem.

    2a. Make the Clash equivalent of a settler unit and WarriorBand, explore then settle. There will be no “units” other than these two. Since there are no opponents, the warrior bands are only used for exploration.

    3. Expansion - we need rules for this, but we can use simple versions of the stuff we're talking about in the Expansion thread. For the purposes of this demo the “people-everywhere” rule I have mentioned before will not apply.

    4. Economy - At this point you have a cutting-edge stone age economy with advanced carrot-synthesis methods. I think we should mostly stick to "building" the two units. Also players could use a limited economic gui to build just a few other things, like farms (farm kapital) or increase production (production kapital). One possibility is to limit the player to civ-wide orders to cut down on the confusion factor. For this we will need the capability to let scenarios enable and disable game features. My inclination is to have one special such as gold in the economy to give players some unique squares to try and exploit.

    That is it for Scenario 1. The player learns to settle land as in Civ and numerous other games, gets to explore, and expand a bit, guided by the help system. The player learns how to move units, and works a stripped-down economic system gui. I am not sure if there’s a point to having victory objectives for this. Since once people figure the basics out there isn’t much stimulation in going further. But we could make a simple easy-to-achieve target like getting your civ to 300,000 people.

    Is this a good amount for the demo? Too much? Not enough?
    This does not resemble Delenda in the least, and this is pretty much the line I have been following.

    But the Game in demo 7, after we restructured our approach in the Reworking thread, was still supposed to be something like the old Delenda scenario. At least that was what I thought. If we don't have something like that, we will give the appearance that we are going Backwards in features.
    This pretty much goes against the whole notion of the tutorials, and leaves me a bit up in the air.

    On the other hand, assuming that this rejection of the Reworking Our Demo Approach is only a temporary aberration:

    With the settler unit, 2a is already provided. Suppose we make a type of settler unit which automatically builds a city, and ensure the possibility of building another settler unit exists. Then require the building of two more cities. Ideally this should have the new economics gui available. I do not have too much trouble waiting for that before releasing D7.

    Cheers

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Gary Thomas
      This does not resemble Delenda in the least, and this is pretty much the line I have been following.

      This pretty much goes against the whole notion of the tutorials, and leaves me a bit up in the air.
      I changed over to the "we need both" view about 2/3 of the way down that thread. You may not have seen it, but I assumed that was where we were going because of the near-universal opinion that just scenario 1 on the Dawn track would not be enough to hold players' interest. :

      So there seems to me to be varying opinions that can be satisfied by having both a QuickStart Tutorial Scenario, and Also more targetted ones as Plutarck Suggests. As the Dawn sequence gets filled in, it could be the QuickStart one, and pieces of it and/or unrelated scenarios could be the deep-dive ones.
      I still think tutorial + complex is the right way to go. Perhaps we can get someone to set up another more meaty scenario for D7 once the example of step 1 of Dawn is there. Or they could use the Hannibal scenario as a template, and just change the terrain to make it mostly land.

      Dawn would be the recommended path for people to play at least once for D7, and then Hannibal-sans-Mediterranean would be the meaty one.

      On the other hand, assuming that this rejection of the Reworking Our Demo Approach is only a temporary aberration:

      With the settler unit, 2a is already provided. Suppose we make a type of settler unit which automatically builds a city, and ensure the possibility of building another settler unit exists. Then require the building of two more cities. Ideally this should have the new economics gui available. I do not have too much trouble waiting for that before releasing D7.
      I am for getting the new econ gui in, but can't say I'm really excited about that concept overall. Maybe because its so like civ??? I guess it could do.

      Cya,

      Mark
      Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
      A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
      Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

      Comment


      • #33
        OK, what else do you want to teach them in tutorial 1?

        Cheers

        Comment


        • #34
          Hiya Gary:

          If I'd had any good ideas, I'd have said 'em

          After skimming the Reworking thread, how about this...
          Goals:
          1. Get to X population
          2. produce 10 units of Gold, Salt and Tin
          2b. implicitly you must produce at least two cities/provinces to do 2

          optional:
          3. there are barb units that wander about the map. they target settlers only, so you need to escort your settlers. Not meant to be a big threat, but add a little uncertainty.

          We widely spread the different resources so you need to explore most of the map to find all three. It is a bit cheezy, but the best I can come up with at the moment. I suggest you give that thread a skim, maybe you'll find something good I've missed.

          Cya,

          Mark
          Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
          A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
          Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

          Comment


          • #35
            1. Get to X population
            This I can handle when we get the population to increase.

            2. produce 10 units of Gold, Salt and Tin
            2b. implicitly you must produce at least two cities/provinces to do 2
            I thought a city might form automatically when the population gets to 20,000?

            optional:
            3. there are barb units that wander about the map. they target settlers only, so you need to escort your settlers. Not meant to be a big threat, but add a little uncertainty.
            Of course they are now automatically escorted.

            We widely spread the different resources so you need to explore most of the map to find all three. It is a bit cheezy, but the best I can come up with at the moment. I suggest you give that thread a skim, maybe you'll find something good I've missed.
            Couldn't find anything useful.

            I have (as you can see in the map graphics thread) implemented the coasts. The actual tiles need a bit of tidying up, but that is not a show-stopper. I have emailed Stian.

            As I mentioned earlier, I solved the civilization (or anything else) modification (from a generic one) problem in the xml input. It is even possible to get an existing civilization and rename it. However you cannot have two different civilizations based on the same generic one.

            About the only thing I can do now is add "Cancel road building", and then some more on the social/government model (which won't have any effect on Dawn 1).

            Cheers

            Comment


            • #36
              Hey Gary:

              Everything you said above is fine by me (just to be clear).

              Originally posted by Gary Thomas
              I have (as you can see in the map graphics thread) implemented the coasts. The actual tiles need a bit of tidying up, but that is not a show-stopper. I have emailed Stian.

              As I mentioned earlier, I solved the civilization (or anything else) modification (from a generic one) problem in the xml input. It is even possible to get an existing civilization and rename it. However you cannot have two different civilizations based on the same generic one.
              Sounds great on both counts!

              About the only thing I can do now is add "Cancel road building", and then some more on the social/government model (which won't have any effect on Dawn 1).
              For Dawn 1, there may be some existing bugs that should be looked into also. You could look at the bug list that's on the second post of the D6 thread. I think I have most things rated by priority.

              One other issue is that IIRC there are still unresolved tech code implementation questions that I had from about a month back. If you have the time and inclination, you could scan the last page http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...3&pagenumber=4 starting with my post of 26-02-2002 13:25 I'm giving tech slightly higher priority than social since we hope to use it in Dawn 2.
              Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
              A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
              Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

              Comment


              • #37
                Well, I have been asking, then pleading for a useable tech xml file for about eight months now, with no response. I am not really inclined to spend my time coding something that has no data to support it. Sorry.

                Cheers

                Comment


                • #38
                  I'm sorry. I didn't know that anyone needed any new tech stuff now. I thought that the existing xml file would be run in the program as a test, and then we would use that test data to make a fuller file.

                  I have been hit by a major attack of schoolwork, but I'll see what I can do. What exactly did you need?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Just a realistic very ancient tech tree, up to the bronze age. Things like:

                    Biology:
                    Agriculture
                    Plant breeding (at some primitive level)
                    Animal domestication
                    Animal breeding
                    Horse domestication
                    Cattle domestication
                    Sheep domestication
                    Cavalry horse
                    Goat domestication
                    Vegetable growing
                    Fruit growing (quite a late development)

                    Metals:
                    Mining
                    Copper smelting
                    Bronze alloy
                    Casting

                    Military:
                    Ritualistic battle
                    Close order combat
                    Chariots
                    Cavalry

                    Naval:
                    Dugout
                    Canoe
                    Sails
                    Oars (as opposed to paddles)
                    Bireme or penteconter
                    Trireme

                    Social:
                    City administration
                    Writing
                    Numeracy
                    Schools

                    These are just some off the cuff ideas, not meant to be exhaustive - that is your job!

                    Cheers

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Once I do some Econ code cleanup, I will figure out a way to handle population diffusion in a simple manner. It will be based on economic attractiveness of the target square as compared to where the people are now.

                      I'm still hoping we can get a new high-level econ interface into Dawn 1. However for the more detailed stuff we may still need the old interface for just a bit. If we need to keep the old one I'll also put in some quick code to allow it to be simplified (like leaving out ROI) for the tutorial.
                      Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
                      A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
                      Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I am in the throes of implementing a simple event system so that discovering something (pigs, einkorn wheat, grapes, whatever) registers on the system and can have results.

                        The system I have developed is:

                        1. Features. These are purely visible terrain features such as a apicture of a horse. They have no other effect on the system, but can be removed by Actions (see below).

                        2. Events. These are a sort of generic "something happens" class. Currently implemented are two events: VistSquare which keeps a record of all civilizations that have visited that square, and SingleVisitSquare which is triggered only by the first civilization to visit the square. Events can have a list of actions (specified in the scenario file) which are triggered when the event happens.

                        3. Actions. These do something to the game state. At present the only things implemented are RemoveFeature and SetCondition.

                        4. Conditions. These are state variables which function a bit like persistent events. They are stored in the civilization concerned. Example are "horses have been discovered by this civilization". This in turn will be queried by the tech model to allow "horse breeding" as a technology.

                        This system seems to me to enable quite a number of possible scenario events, and is readily extendible to other events and actions. Some of these might become quite complex.

                        The system also extends readily to diplomacy.

                        Cheers

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Hey Gary:

                          Those sound good to me. We'll see what's needed as we move ahead. One event we'll need for the tutorial is a "turn number" event. Then on turn 0 (startup) we can tell the player about stunning Clash feature A, and on turn 1 about B, etc. At least that's what I think many people who won't be troubled to read the manual were looking for in a simple tutorial.
                          Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
                          A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
                          Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Wec will need TurnNumber, BuiltFarm, CityCreated, and various technology achieved events.

                            Cheers

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I'm now working on getting colonists to distribute themselves effectively into the different economic sectors (farming, etc.). For now there is no influence upon this distribution of whether the economy is market or traditional. My question (for the longer term) is should colonists that are primarily traditional keep their fixed patterns of distribution into the sectors when colonizing? I don't know if its realistic, but I'm sure it will piss off players to have settlements start out hobbled because there are an inappropriate number of say farmers compared to other sectors given the sites available. My notion of how to handle this for now is that settlers with a traditional economy will distribute themselves near-optimally but after that the traditions are set for that locality, and the proportions of workers in the sectors stay fixed (in a pure traditional economy, which will be rare). My hand-waving argument is that the colonists knew that traditional patterns could be shaken up when they moved.
                              Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
                              A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
                              Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Mark, I think your proposal is OK. I think the traditions hold only when there is some amount of infrastructure. Those who migrate are usually ready to start from scratch and seize whatever opportunity is open to them.

                                On a different topic:
                                I have been trying to have civilizations start neutral and wait for the player to give orders to move into enemy territory to make the civ enemy. The questions I have are the following:
                                1) Why on Earth am I unable to make a panel that doesn't look ugly? (you don't have to answer this one)
                                2) I want a warning popup to appear when a player's army enters a neutral territory, so that they know that they will be at war if they enter there.
                                Should I: - warn when the army enter neutral territory, - warn when the player first gives the order?
                                Clash of Civilization team member
                                (a civ-like game whose goal is low micromanagement and good AI)
                                web site http://clash.apolyton.net/frame/index.shtml and forum here on apolyton)

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