Technology System Version 5.1

[Mark_Everson]

Richard:

Engineering...
uses a lot of diverse things, but there are also many approaches, and a "mindset" that all the engineering fields Do have in common. Anyway, my recommendation is to use engineering as a basic "technology". Doing it this way just feels better to me than the way you have it. That said, do it whichever way you want, and I'll work with it.

Agriculture/Farming...
you are right, these are redundant. The reason I put them in that way is my personal picture that all the things that have real quantifiable "area" effects for the player should show up on level 3. Perhaps we should just lose Agriculture as a level 2 Tech. The problem with splitting it into more specific skills, is that if we have five things for agriculture on level 3,then I would need 50 to do the whole economic model, which is way too many. That's also why I made Improved Crops an application, because otherwise we will quickly overload the space in level 3 IMO. You guys are in charge, but I am with Axi, if there is too much stuff the player needs to deal with than the game will become a nightmare. Anyway, one of the reasons I took this on is so I could use the economic area as a guinea pig for how the technology model structure actually works.

Every level 3 needs an application...
you are right , I somehow got into that bad habit! You are right that Herding and other level 3 things do not need further elaboration in level 4.

The main message I get from your post, is that you picture an awful lot of things being in level 3. Obviously we have a different perspective on the game function of level 3, or at least the gameplay consequences of having 200 + things in level 3. I think something like 100 is the Absolute Maximum of things that we can have the player be expected to deal with. It's probably already too many... I'm just trying to picture an interface that allows you to deal with more than 100 discrete things, and having real trouble seeing how it can work without having multiple layers of stuff for the player to burrow through. A number like 100,already requires at least a too-level menu system, with the first level containing to attend major areas, and the second level allowing these ten major areas to split down the into 10 subdivisions. I think we need to reserve level 3, or Some subset of the model, to allow the player reasonably fine control over the general areas that are important. And like Axi said, these should be things that have a substantial effect on the models, or they are pointless clutter.

So, for instance, the reason I just want a single Farming technology at level 3 is so that when the player wants more food from the land they can just dump money and resources into it. The player shouldn't need to worry as to whether what is needed is better irrigation techniques, improved crop species, or better farm implements. Right now we already have three level 3 things pertaining to food production: Farming, Fishing, and Herding. I think that is his much detail as we can spare out of a potential maximum of 100 technologies. I would be significantly happier if we could get it down to 50!

If you and LGJ could please respond on this vitally important issue (to me anyway) as soon as possible I would appreciate it. If you have an alternative view of the interface, and how the player is actually supposed to wade through the enormous amount of detail you want to throw at them, then I would like to hear it stated explicitly. I agree that for the people that are really into the details, there is the level 4 stuff that they can romp around in. They are by definition willing to wade through some more menus to get the ultimate in fine control. I'm talking about what the average player who just wants some broad management of technology, with an occasional specific tweak, should do.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Axi: That is one reason we are asking the model leaders what they want. Also playtesting is really the only way to fine tune this to the extent ur looking for, but if u have any current ideas let me know.

Mark: I posted above that 100 is a reasonable goal to shoot for, however we shouldn't be constrained by a maximum number if we need more, nor should we reach that number if we don't.

Also we shouldn't have something like farming if we have agriculture, only more specific aspects. Also something like "improved crops" i'm not really for unless that's simply a coding name because i don't want any arbitrary names for anything because "improved" is very subjective.
[This message has been edited by Lord God Jinnai (edited February 22, 2000).]

[Richard Bruns]

Axi: That is what I have been saying all along. Level 3 belongs to the model leaders; they tell us what is needed and we put it in. We will probably have to trim their lists a bit, but they will probably have a use in mind for everything they will give us.

Mark:

The Construction basic tech could be expanded to Construction and Engineering. Would that work?

You assume that the interface will simply be a list of all the Level 3 techs. I agree that if we choose to do this, then the interface will be a mess. But I thought that the techs would be organized like the folders on a hard drive, with Level 1 and 2 techs serving as the big folders that organize things.

The first layer of the interface is a list of the Level 1 techs. If you choose to do so, you can allocate RP to that overall tech and it will be split among all of the sub-techs. Or, you can choose to be more specific. You can expand the tech 'folder' and look at its contents, which are Level 2 techs. Here you have the same option. You can allocate RP to an entire Level 2 tech, which means that all Level 3 techs under that tech are supported. So if you simply wanted to make farms better, you put a lot into the Level 2 tech of Agriculture. If you wanted to be more specific, you can expend this tech 'folder', look at the Level 3 techs, and deal with them individually.

Note that when you allocate RP to a broad group you are not improving the Level 1 and 2 techs. You are telling the RP's to be split among all of the Level 3 techs that the the Level 1 and 2 techs are vital techs for. Whenever you get the option to support the Level 1 and 2 techs, the research is split among those as well.

There are some Level 2 techs that are not under a specific Level 1 tech. If supported by multiple Level 1 techs, they are placed in each 'folder.' If they are not supported by any Level 1 tech, they would be placed with the Level 1 techs, in the first organization window.

This isn't a definite proposal; it is just an idea to show how the techs could be organized to ease the player interface. An alternate organization scheme would be to organize them based on the things they are useful for, like Food or Production or Happiness.

Anyway, as I see it the player will easily be able to play an entire game without messing with the tech tree more than a couple times. Most RP's are assigned automatically; the player will not be making tech decisions every few turns.

For a while now I have been working on Tech System 5.2. I have been looking at basic dynamics of the system and crunching a lot of numbers and formulas. Issues regarding the interface and RP generation are also in there. As I haven't yet done any work on the actual tech chart, I will post 5.2 in two parts. The first will have the system analysis and the second will have the chart with (hopefully) everyone's techs included. The first post should be done in a couple days. The second will have to wait on more input from model leaders.

[Krenske]

Richard
The chart being developed by you is going to be level 1,2,3, Yes? We can then debate that list and get it sorted.

The list of applications (lv 4) can be developed over more time. The full application list will have numerous applications and will take quite a while to beat into shape. Also most customisation of the system by users, would involve the application level.

I am looking forward to both parts of the model.

Paul Krenske.

[Richard Bruns]

We are going to make a chart with three tech levels and applciations, but that is on the back burner for now as I concentrate on the actual system dynamics. I need techs from model leaders before I can compile the actual chart for review. And this draft will have many Level 4 techs, at least the ones that will ba used in ancient times.

[Mark_Everson]

LGJ:

I know 100 is an arbitrary goal. But my point is if we don't keep a lid on things and it gets to 250, I don't think it will be any fun. What I'm trying to do is stop things from blowing up to a ridiculous level before we invest a lot of time in figuring out which level 4 applications hookup to which other technologies.

On the "Improved Crops" it's not arbitrary, but there is a continual advancement in food crops, and to not have it in there simply because we don't want to name every single strain doesn't seem to be the right approach to me.

Richard:

Well, construction and engineering is better than nothing... and a decent compromise.

Personally, I strongly feel that the interface needs to be done at the function level. Nobody will want to drill down through chemistry to get to firearms. That will very quickly drive people crazy IMO. Your folder should be "military", "economics" etc. IMO.

quote: Note that when you allocate RP to a broad group you are not improving the Level 1 and 2 techs. You are telling the RP's to be split among all of the Level 3 techs that the the Level 1 and 2 techs are vital techs for. Whenever you get the option to support the Level 1 and 2 techs, the research is split among those as well.

sorry, you lost me... the player Has to be able to invest in Physics in the modern age. Modern governments actually do that. And it's very important. In the pre-modern world I don't think you should be able to invest in level one or two techs at all in a realistic system. But for gameplay purposes we may have to break from realism. If investing in level 1 in 2 turns out to be impossible to do well I don't have any problem with ditching reality, but if it's easy to do Clash should support what happens in the real world. Maybe I misunderstood you here.

quote: Anyway, as I see it the player will easily be able to play an entire game without messing with the tech tree more than a couple times. Most RP's are assigned automatically; the player will not be making tech decisions every few turns.

Well I think a player Could play a game without messing with the tech tree more than a few times, but most will want more than that. Being in control of the technological progression of one's civilization is one of the big attractions of a civ-type game! At least for me. And if someone who is interested in technology can't do much of anything, we are going to lose Huge Numbers of players. This is one place where I think we really need to break with realism. Unless the player selects, through a realism slider, that they want to be prevented from doing unhistorical things with the technology, I think we Need to let them. I am firmly convinced that the interface needs to be able to support tweaking on a "once every ten turns" basis or so without it being a huge pain. For instance every time a war comes along I can see generally pacifistic governments really sinking money into military research in the modern world. Those transitions will happen fairly frequently.


Is your next version close enough that I should wait before going further on the economic model? Please let me know.

[Lord God Jinnai]

What do u mean by historically accuracte?

Also esp in modern times most civ governments didn't develope much in the way of technology, except for perhaps military purposes, but only then if they were at war/thought they might be at war. If not they didn't. And a pacificst type people wouldn't sink money into military, although it will increase. Even so most would be in defenive technology, not offensive (FE walls). I really think that allowing the player to have a lot of control in this time period is wrong. I'm not saying none, just not too much. (IE the free RPs which can be placed anywhere will be much more scarce than modern times). If they player wants to invest more in another area he'd have to find other ways to subtly change this. Remember even in this time period, even the God-Kings didn't have as much influence as some of the governemnts of today, such as communism, which pretty much controls every aspect of everyones life. No one could do that back then and without that power one cannot control exactly how techs advance.

BTW mark if we use a system like what Rich says for the tech levels, so long as we don't have 1000 level 3 techs the number shouldn't be a problem, reguardless of how they are organised. I also like his method with a few changes:

Lvl 2 techs w/o prereq could be listed under a Misc category and one couldn't assign RP to that lvl 1 category, but only its lvl 2 sections and beyond.

A player can have a special quick referances to certain level 3 techs they might use the most these would be with the lvl 1 techs, but kinda with a devider so the player knew it wasn't lvl 1 techs. Or i could be under a "Most used" category

[Mark_Everson]

LGJ:

On the player being able to influence tech, I didn't mean they should get control of the RPs produced by the people. I very poorly stated my position. What I mean is that the player should be able to invest state resources (basically cash) much more than is historically accurate.

In terms of folders based on Level 1 techs...
That is more like a 9th-grade project than a game! A Game has an interface that allows the player quickly and intuitively to change what they want. I'd have no problem with an Alternative that allows starting with the Biology folder, etc. But we Must have the main tech interface be based on game function IMO.

[Richard Bruns]

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Mark Everson:

sorry, you lost me... the player Has to be able to invest in Physics in the modern age. Modern governments actually do that. And it's very important. In the pre-modern world I don't think you should be able to invest in level one or two techs at all in a realistic system.
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That is exactly what I said. In pre-medern times, giving cash to Agriculture does not improve the Level 2 tech, it simply supports all of the Level 3 techs under Agriculture. In modern times, it would also raise the Level 2 tech level.
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Being in control of the technological progression of one's civilization is one of the big attractions of a civ-type game! At least for me.
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Most players I know don't care how they get advancements; they simply want to get everything. Things will all advance at about the same rate, so they will get the tech they want by concentrating on expanding the empire and improving infrastructure. The ability to chage things is still there, but my point is that a player will never be forced to go into the guts of the tree. They can, but they don't have to.

You are right about going through Level 1 techs. That would be an unnecessary layer. But currently, all of the Level 2 techs correspond to some game function like Agriculture, Architecture, Combat Engineering, Explosives, or Navigation. I think that an interface designed around the Level 2 techs would be intuitive and reasonable.

There are about 50 Level 2 techs. We could just list them, or we could put them in groups based on broader game function. Each Level 2 tech could have up to 10 Level 3 tech under it, but the average will be about two or three.

For example, the Level 2 tech Agriculture would have Level 3 techs of Animal Husbandry, Crop Plants, Farm Landscaping, and Farm Machines and Tools. The Animal Husbandry tech would determine the food producing ability of your nomad provinces, and to a lesser extent your normal farms. The Crop Plants tech would have Crop Rotation as an application and it would have a direct effect on farm productivity. The Farm Landscaping would have Irrigation, Drainage, Terraces, and Contour Plowing as applications. The Farm Machines would have the various plows and advanced machines like the reaper.

If you are a tech oriented person you can have fun with this detail, but if you are in a hurry you can simply put cash into the big category of Architecture and the money will be spread among the Level 3 techs based on some algorithm.

For another example, if you don't want to worry about the details of Navigation, then you simply stuff cash into that category, like Prince Henry of Portugal did. The RP will be split among all Level 3 techs that have Navigation as a vital tech. If you are a tech oriented person then you can expand the category and tweak the Level 3 techs under Navigation.

The next version of the tech system is 100% compatible with the current tech lists. The only difference is the equations that make the computer crunch the numbers for tech growth, helper techs, and the application factors. LGJ wanted to review it first, so I'll get his comments and then post it.
[This message has been edited by Richard Bruns (edited February 23, 2000).]

[Richard Bruns]

Mark:
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In my Thematic approach there would be links to airplanes in each of Military, Economic, and Communication and Transportation (think we need the latter for the interface) and it will be right there where they expect it.
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I must have missed something. Where did you propose an interface plan? I didn't know there was any plan; I had been simply been tossing out ideas. I never meant to make a seroius proposal, and I said as much. I just saw that everyone was assuming that the interface would be a list of all the level 3 techs, and I wanted to consider other options.

What I was describing was only meant for Level 3 techs that fit into a larger category. I think I was also unconsciously using Axi's tree, where everything fits into nice categories.

Also, I assumed that we would have the tech chart in the reference materials and people would be somewhat familiar with that, so an organization system based on the chart would be the most natural thing. If a person wanted to figure out how to acquire something, then they would look in the chart and see what techs they would have to build so that they would get that thing. Once they did that, they would be familiar with the requirements and would know where to go to deal with the thing after they were created.

You are right about the path for some construction processes being convoluted. These would have to be put in seperate categories. But for most areas of skill, the Level 2 techs are the same as the thing that needs to be helped.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Mark:

Airplanes--- Fluid Dynamics 35%, Engines 50%
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In mine example Airplanes would be linked under aircraft or air transportation for level 2 (airplanes being level 3), and level one would be transportation in general. Military section may also have some related level 3 and 4 stuff that is appropraite to it, but prob not since Military developement isn't a type of research/tech, its the application of those techs.

I think we should go by the easiest to do interface right now and see where it needs tweeking from there.

[Mark_Everson]

Richard:

My interface plan, as far as it got...

quote: posted February 03, 2000 21:35 I picture the interface as being run at the Specific tech (3) level. The player IMO, generally doesn't really give a damn about Physics or Economics, they want the stuff that will allow them to get applications. In fact I really hated the new idea from both a player, and AI perspective, until it occurred to me that the management should really be done at the Specific Tech level. After that, it seemed just fine! I do like the educational aspect of knowing what the foundations are for a specific application. But making the player drill down endlessly through menus to exert some fine control on the technology process seems like a losing idea to me. The picture I have is that the player can be presented with many Specific Techs at the same time coded in "traffic light" fashion. The green ones are ones that could give you immediate benefit in terms of applications. When you put resources into one of these the research points would (Player option) go up levels to push along the higher techs that are needed, and also trickle-down into specific applications that are attainable. This is basically a pretty straight adaptation of the idea I presented in my post around 1300 today. When the specific tech is coded yellow, you are close to being able to use some applications in, but not quite there yet. In this case research points that you put into it would go mainly up levels to further the basic technologies that this Specific Tech relies upon. When it gets practical to actually get applications out of it, it would turn green. Finally, the red ones (which might or might not be shown) would be very far from practicality. If you decided to put resources into these the resources would be directed completely "upwards" to build the foundations that will eventually result in this Specific Tech coming to fruition.

chart in reference materials...
Yuck. IMO it needs to be intuitive. Clash will be complicated enough without charts. And the target of total techs plus applications is now something of order 1000! Do you know how big a chart you'd need. They had something like what you have in mind in the Turkey game Destiny. It wasn't as well-orgainized as yours, but I see this potentially heading in the same direction and I shudder...

LGJ and Richard:

I just want to have all the Practical things isolated in level 3. IMO there should be nothing in level 3 where the players will say "what the f*** is that?". Each major model (Econ, Mil, etc.) should have at most 15-20 level 3 techs relevant at any time, otherwise the player will drown in detail. Remember Level 3 IMO should Not be the Fine-Control level. That is the specific apps. I don't really think things need a lot of tweaking to get there, and IMO it would make the interface and AI MUCH easier to do.

I will wait for guidance as to where to go from here with the econ model's tech area. If you want me to have more than 15 or 20 level 3 techs for the whole econ model, then I'm going to have to ask for your detailed assesment of the econ tech interface, and how many mouse clicks it takes to change basic things. Many players will want to do that stuff once every 10 or 20 turns. If things are buried too far in the interface the player's experience will suffer dramatically. And if there isn't a set of simple practical connections to the functional aspects of each model it will be IMO almost Impossible to do a good job with the tech AI.

[Richard Bruns]

Mark:
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Remember Level 3 IMO should Not be the Fine-Control level. That is the specific apps.
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I don't know what you are thinking of; I have explicitly stated that applications should not be micromanaged. As I imagined the system there is nothing that you can do to control applications, except for changing the Level 3 tech levels. I think that managing all of the applications individually would be a horror; almost as bad as a standard tech tree. The application levels depend solely on the Application Factor equation.

For the reference materials, I envision a hyperlinked help file, not a paper chart. The Level 3 techs would be listed alphabetically, and if you click on one, then you get its description, requirements, effects, and applications. There would also be a diagram showing the connections between the Level 1 and 2 techs.

Another thing that would be great is a right-click for help system. This is an enormous asset. If you need info about something, you right-click to get a little window with help or reference info. If this is possible, it would make the game a lot easier to play.

We should be able to do well with a 2-step tech interface. The first thing is what you want to do, which in most cases will be the Level 2 tech. For things like airplanes we make new categories. The second step is the Level 3 techs. When I compile the tree I will try to include an interface based on player needs. Or, you could do the interface if you think I would foul it up.

Also, why would changing the player interface make the AI harder to program? I assume that for AI purposes, every tech will have a tag, like Hrafnkell proposed. This tag tells the computer what it is most useful for. In normal situations, the computer just builds everything equally. This shouldn't be affected by the thing the player uses to interact with techs.

Speaking of tags, we could make them an option for players. Could there be menu that allows players to spread RP's among all techs with a certain tag?

By the way, what do you think of the Level 3 tech list I had for Agriculture?

[Mark_Everson]

Tags... thats a great idea. It gets around all these problems cause each model lead can pick the most important things. I guess that would remove the level 3 restrictions. Sounds cool, but I need to think about it. Will get back to you on the other stuff.

[Richard Bruns]

It's not my idea; it was in that old tech thread you pointed us to. I had worked them into 5.2 as a suggestion even before this discussion.