Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Technology System Version 5.1

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Technology System Version 5.1

    Previous Technology Thread

    This tech model will most likely be very close to what will be in the final game, unless someone else has a brilliant new idea. If you have any ideas, comments, or suggestions, now is the time to make them known. After we agree on the final structure of the model, the hard work of adding detail and fine tuning everything will begin. We would like as much input as possible before we start sinking a lot of work into the details. The last technology thread gave us a lot of good ideas for the model and helped us improve the system. More input and discussion will improve this system as well, so please let us know what you think.

    This post is meant to be a good starting point for everyone, so I will start at the beginning. If you are familiar with the tech model, just skim through what you already know.

    Justification and Background

    In most tech trees, all techs are discrete units that are linked together by prerequisites. This works fine for simple games that are focused on a single topic or are not very detailed. However, Clash will be a game with great depth and complexity, and this type of system would lead to many problems. The main one is complexity. A tech tree with hundreds of techs linked together would be difficult for the player to learn and very difficult to construct. It would also be vulnerable to bugs and gameplay problems. A similar problem is one of flexibility. Such a tree is very hard to adjust. It would make tech tree creation or modification very difficult for the Clash team and anyone who wanted to make a scenario.

    Another problem is historical accuracy. In the normal tech tree, all knowledge comes in big chunks and never improves after you get it. Your metallurgy skill is the same in 2000 BC and 2000 AD. This is unrealistic. Historically, technologies are constantly improving in a continuous fashion.

    To reflect this and avoid the problems with a standard tech tree, we have created a tree that splits technologies into four layers. The bottom layer consists of Applications, which are items, improvements, or units that you can implement in your civilization. The top three layers are Technologies that grow continuously as your civ advances.

    This solves the problems of complexity and flexibility that plague most tech trees. Rather than making a complex chain of applications, a thing is simply assigned a requirement of some percentage of one or more Technologies. This makes it amazingly easy to modify the tech tree and add units. Now, we can allow other model leaders to give us a list of applications that they want and easily put those technologies in the tree. With the normal tech tree type, we would have to force other people to use the technologies that we put in at the beginning. The current tech tree model is flexible enough to be easily changed by the Clash team and any scenario designer.

    Description of the System

    Technologies are broad, contiguous areas of knowledge or skill that are defined as percentages from zero to a hundred. Zero percent represents no knowledge, 1% represents minimal knowledge, and 100% represents the highest level of publicly known application as of January 1, 2000. The scale is logarithmic, with each 10% increase representing approximately a doubling in knowledge or skill. This might not be entirely accurate, but it works for now and we can rescale it later.

    There are three layers of these Technologies. We have names for the levels, but to avoid confusion I will refer to them as Level 1, 2, and 3.

    Level 1 technologies are broad, theoretical fields of knowledge like Physics or Biology. Level 1 technologies determine how fast other technologies will advance. This will be described in detail later.

    Level 2 technologies are more focused and practical areas of study, usually within the Level 1 techs. They include things like Mechanics, Electromagnetics, and Optics under the Physics tech and Anatomy, Botany, and Ecology under the Biology tech. The level of these technologies determine the efficiency at which your civ can do certain things, as well as determining the rate of advancement of Level 3 technologies.

    Level 3 technologies are your civ's knowledge and skill in some specific area of practical application of knowledge. A certain level of a Level 1 or 2 tech might be required to obtain this technology. Examples of these techs are Shipbuilding or Robotics. Specific applications become available when some percentage of one or more Level 3 technologies have been reached.

    Note that Level 3 technologies like Shipbuilding are not just sets of theories and equations. The techs are also meant to represent experimentation, trials, prototypes, and the study of potential applications. So by Shipbuilding 50% your people have already drawn plans for a new type of ship, built a prototype of that device, and figured out how to operate it and what it weould be good for. At that point you get the message that some new thing is available. The practical part of things is already included in all of the techs. They are not just academic disciplines; they also represent the completed and tested plans for doing things.

    Gaining Technology

    Basic technology levels are increased by spending Research Points, or RP's. These are generated by your civ, and the amount your civilization generates should grow constantly as your population and economy expand. The pool of your RP's represents the entire creative capacity of your civilization, not just people working under government supervision. Any farmer, craftsman, engineer, or philosopher is a potential source of RP's. You also get RP's from any contact with other civilizations. Trade is one of the biggest RP generators, but battle, espionage, and the mere presence of another civ close by will generate RP's to simulate the diffusion of knowledge and technology. Of course, you can also generate RP's by investing in research. In addition to this, you get a small amount of RP's every time you construct something.

    You do not control how most RP's are spent. Any 'free' RP will be spent automatically to advance the technology that is most related to the production source. For example, RP's generated automatically by an agricultural province would be spent on Biology, Breeding, and Botany while RP's that you get by building a string of fortifications would be spent on Masonry and Architecture.

    The technologies that you will be able to most directly influence will be the Level 3 techs. Until you get close to the early modern era, your government will not be able to influence the more theoretical Level 1 and 2 techs because their connection to practical applications are not well understood. Any research you order will be into some Level 3 tech like Siege Weaponry. You can say, "Make better siege weapons for our army" but until you know more about how science works you will not be able to say, "Learn about Physics."

    As you grow more advanced, you will gain the ability to put money into Level 2 techs. Later, you will be able to support the development of Level 1 techs as well.

    Because the rate of knowledge growth is exponential and the rate of RP production is also close to exponential, the number of RP's spent for an increase in percentage must also grow exponentially. Also, you must spend RP's to keep your tech levels from falling. This represents the effort put into teaching the people your civ's scientific, cultural, and technical knowledge. The amount of effort you put into education is proportional to the amount you know, so you have to spend RP's based on the level of the tech.

    So we have a differential equation of the form

    dP=(RP-a((bP)^n))(c/(eP)^m)

    where a, b, c, e, n, and m are constants, P is the current percentage, dP is the change in that percentage every turn, and RP is the amount of RP's spent on the tech in one turn.

    If RP is zero, the tech declines at a rate proportional to the level of the tech. If RP=xP, there is no growth. You can see that the input required to keep the tech level constant increases as the tech does, to simulate the greater amount of teaching required. In between these two, the decline is less rapid but still present. If the first term is greater than zero, then the tech rises, but the rate of the rise slows as the tech level increases.

    The previous equation does not take into account the effect of tech synergy. All fields of knowledge are related, so knowing more about Tech A will allow your research into Tech B to be more effective. The change in the percentage increase of Tech B is multiplied by some factor that depends on the level of tech A. The nominal equation for this is

    dPf=dP*C*2^(A/10)

    where dPf is the final increase of Tech B, dP is the number obtained from the first equation, C is a constant, and A is the percentage of Tech A. Obviously dP will have to be very small, so it will be very hard to raise the tech if A is low.

    Tech A is known as either a Vital Tech or a Helper Tech, depending on the magnitude of C. A Helper Tech gives a smaller increase in tech gain, while it is almost impossible to raise a tech without a decent level of a Vital Tech.

    Vital Techs are almost always techs that are one level above the tech being influenced. Vital Techs are technologies that are extremely important to the development and understanding of the tech in question. The dependant tech is usually a sub-field of the Vital Tech. For Example, Anatomy would have Biology as a Vital Tech. A Helper Tech can be any other tech that would aid the knowledge or study of the tech. Optics would be one Helper Tech for Anatomy.

    Applications

    Applications have percent requirements in one or more technologies, usually Level 3 technologies. When that percentage is reached, the application becomes available to your civ.

    Note that gaining the requirements for the application does not necessarily mean that you can use it instantly. Any item must be made using the productive capacity of your civ, and social applications like Public Education can only be implemented if your population agrees to it, based on the social model.

    The effectiveness of applications depends on the level of the relevant Level 3 technology. The tentative equation for this Application Factor is

    E=.1(T1-R1+10) * .1(T2-R2+10) . . .

    where E is the effectiveness of the application, R is the percentage requirement for the application, and T is the current percentage of the requirement technology.

    When the device is acquired by normal research, all T values will equal the R values and E will be one. As the T values increase, E will also increase. This simulates the constant improvement of applications as basic technical knowledge increases.

    To explore this equation and its consequences in detail, consider an application with only one tech requirement. Assume that the Level 3 tech Firearms is the only requirement for the Arquebusiers unit, and that this particular application needs Firearms 20%. This is not necessarily accurate or final; it is just an example.

    When you reach Firearms 20%, you get the application and can now make Arquebusiers. T=R, so E=1. The unit is at its base power.

    Now suppose that you increase your knowledge to Firearms 25%. This means that your firearms knowledge is about 141% of what it was at Firearms 20% when you developed the Arquebus. E is now 1.5, or 150% of what it was earlier. Your Arquebusiers are 1.5 times as good as they were when you first made them. An increase in technology has resulted in a slightly greater increase in application effectiveness. This is reasonable because there is a lot of room for improvement when something is first developed.

    When Firearms reaches 30%, your knowledge of Firearms has doubled and so has the effectiveness of your Arquebusiers.

    As you continue to increase your tech, you get diminishing returns on that application. This is also reasonable, because as things get better it is hader to improve that thing. At Firearms 40% your knowledge has quadruled, but the Arquebusier effectiveness in only three times its original value. At this point there will usually be a new application with a base effectiveness of four times the effectiveness of the Arquebusiers.

    This new application will quickly make Arquebusiers obsolete, even though both of are increasing effectiveness based on a simple formula. At invention, there is not a very large effectiveness gap. The new thing is at 4 times original Arquebusier power, while Arquebusiers are at 3 times the original power. But as tech rises, the difference quickly becomes large. At Firearms 45%, the Arquebusiers are at 3.5 times their original power. The new unit, however, is at 1.5 times its initial value, or 6 times original Arquebusier power. Arquebusiers are now totally outclassed, even though the starting disparity was not that great.

    Application Loss

    The same application factor can be used to easily and realistically model the loss of ability due to a decline in technology. If you allow technology levels to fall, then applications based on that technology will become less effective. People now lack the technical knowledge to make and repair the application, so it cannot be used as well.

    At first, the loss is not a big disaster. If your Firearms tech drops to 37%, or three percent below the new unit's requirement of 40%, then the Application factor is at 0.7 and the new unit is seven tenths as powerful as it was when it was invented. At this point, this unit is about as effective as your Arquebusiers, so there is no real calamity.

    But as the tech continues to fall, the effects will become severe. At 35% it is at half power, at 33% it is at a third of its original power, at 32% it is one fifth original power, and at 31% it is utterly useless at one tenth of original power. At 30% Firearms technology, the Application Factor is at zero and all units disappear. The application is lost entirely and it will have to be rediscovered. This is reasonable because at this point you have half the knowledge you originally needed to make the thing. The science behind the operation of the thing is now completely foreign to you.

    Sometime during this decline period, you lose the ability to make new copies of the thing and can only maintain the existing applications. The current consensus is that this cutoff point be 5% below the requirement point, when the application factor is 0.5

    Invention

    There is some debate about the acquisition of the applications. My recommendation, which will be used in Demo 5, is that all applications are recieved exactly at the requirement percentage without any deviation. I see this as the best option because it is simple and fair.

    Other people prefer that the application be recieved randomly, with the probability of invention being something like a bell curve centered on some percentage before the requirement percentage. The width of this curve would be based on social factors, with a high chance early invention for societies that value freedom and inventiveness.

    While more realistic and accurate, I think that this is needlessly complex and would lead to several gameplay problems. Any randomness can be supplied by the randomness in the generation of RP's. Occaisionally, someone will raise the Level 3 technology a few points, and this jump in tech can cause the early acquisition of an application.

    This topic has been discussed extensively. The debate is in the Demo 5 Tech Tree thread and the second page of the Technology System E-Mail Archive thread.

    Cultural Uniqueness

    Another new concept in the tech model is the idea of a "Template Tech." This is actually a Level 3 technology or an application that changes its name, description, and icon based on the civ's culture. "Culture" in this context more closely means, "Artistic and Religious preference." It is chosen at the beginning of the game by the player and does not change. It has nothing to do with culture as defined by the social model. For example, the template tech "House of Worship" would be a cathedral for European cultures, a mosque for Arab cultures, a pagoda for Oriental cultures, and a temple for Native American cultures. The house of worship does exactly the same thing for all people and has exactly the same prerequisites, but it looks different so we don't have a situation like the one in Civ 2 where the Japanese or Zulu have to build a cathedral to keep people happy.

    The player never sees the generic name. It is simply a coding description. They would simply see a message like, "We can now build cathedrals" or "We can now build mosques."

    In the basic game, we should keep all things that come from template techs identical. That way, no race of people will have any kind of advantage. But we should give scenario designers the option of changing the things that come from template techs. For example, someone who made a 20th century scenario might want a template tech called, "World War 2 fighter." If you played Americans this would give you a P-51, if you played Japanese this would give you a Zero, etc. As any military history buff knows, these planes were not identical. The scenario designer might want to give them slightly different statistics to reflect history. The ability to make these template techs lead to different things based on the civ would be a powerful design tool.

    The Tech Tree

    This is not meant to be the complete and final list. It is meant to illustrate the structure and stimulate discussion. Most helper techs and Level 3 Technologies have not been included. We plan on adding Applications at the request of the other model leaders.

    People familiar with the old tech tree will note that some technologies have vanished. In most cases this was intentional. Many previous technologies like Resource Gathering were amalgamations of many diverse skills. In this model, these techs have been split into several Level 2 and 3 techs.

    Note that Mathematics is a helper tech for every technical discipline while Art is a helper tech for all social technologies.

    These Level 1 techs are vital techs for all level 2 techs listed after them. The format is
    Level 1 Technology---Dependant Level 2 Technologies

    Art---Literature, Music, Theatre, Visual Arts

    Biology---Anatomy, Botany, Breeding/Genetics, Ecology

    Chemistry---Ceramics, Explosives, Fuels, Metallurgy, Synthetics

    Communication---Diplomacy, Propaganda

    Construction---Architecture, Roads, Mechanical Engineering

    Earth Sciences---Geology, Mapping and Surveying, Navigation, Meteorology, Mining

    Government and Management---Government, Industrial Engineering, Law, Management

    Mathematics

    Military Operations---Air Tactics, Combined Arms, Covert Operations, Infantry Tactics, Logistics, Mobile Tactics

    Physics---Electronics, Fluid Dynamics, Magnetism, Mechanics, Nuclear Physics, Optics

    Social Sciences---Philosophy, Psychology, Religion

    Other Level 2 Techs
    These techs are dependant on multiple Level 1 techs or other Level 2 techs. They also include seperate fields that are not broad enough to be Level 1 techs. The format is
    Level 2 Tech---Vital Techs

    Agriculture---Biology, Earth Sciences
    Astronomy---None
    Civil Engineering---Construction, Government and Management
    Combat Engineering---Construction, Military Operations
    Computers---Mathematics, Electronics
    Economics---Mathematics, Social Sciences
    Education---Communication, Social Sciences
    Masonry and Cement---None
    Medicine---Biology, Psychology
    Textiles---None
    Woodworking---None

    Examples of Level 3 Techs with Requirements

    Airplanes--- Fluid Dynamics 35%, Engines 50%
    Artillery---Explosives 40%, Metallurgy 30%, Mechanics 30%
    Cybernetics---Robotics 90%, Medicine 95%
    Engines---Mechanical Engineering 40%, Metallurgy 40%, Fuels 40%
    Firearms---Explosives 30%, Metallurgy 25%
    Robotics---Computers 60%, Mechanical Engineering 60%
    Shipbuilding---None

    Examples of Applications

    Bomber---Airpanes 30%
    Crossbow---Mechanical Engineering 30%
    Dreadnought---Shipbuilding 40%, Engines 35%, Artillery 30%
    Rifle---Firearms 60%

    That should cover the structure of the new system. What do you think?
    [This message has been edited by Richard Bruns (edited February 13, 2000).]
    [This message has been edited by Richard Bruns (edited February 27, 2000).]

  • #2
    I just realized that there is a big problem with the formula for the Helper and Vital Technologies. These techs will speed up tech loss as well as tech gain. Another problem is that they have no impact on the amount of RP's required to keep knowledge at its current level.

    One possible solution is to have helper techs influence the constants in the forst equation. I don't know exactly how this would work, however. Any ideas?

    Comment


    • #3
      Richard:
      I really like the tech model. Using amounts of more basic tech areas as pre-requisites is a clever way to model tech evolution.

      I'm wondering about how RPs are produced and the link with other models. FE if you have a scenario like Europe in mid-ages under a very rigid and intolerant christian church, you should expect developing new techs would be much harder. Also, what about government policies? Under a dictartorship probably less liberties the people have may impact on RP production. Finally, the economic system should also play a part. Under communism the lack of private property should decrease RP production because a normal guy isn't able to take a benefit from an invention and so people is less inclined to invent things.

      Comment


      • #4
        Richard and LGJ:

        Looks Good! I think we will quickly discover which of the mathematical details work out right, and which don't, as soon as we start putting meat on this for demo 5. I will try to come up with a suggested group of technologies and such for the economic area soon. Between things economic and military, we will give the new system a pretty good acid test.

        Rodrigo:

        Yes, all the links between the social aspects and research points need to be there. Lacking a firm proposal, all I can do is point you to the much earlier tech thread that discusses this. The specifics are about four pages from the top. I think for demo 5 we will just skip all this stuff, seeing as we have too much to work on anyway. However, for demo six I think we should aim for including the social aspects, and at least the government model.

        What do the two tech guys think of the link I posted above?
        Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
        A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
        Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

        Comment


        • #5
          1 thing that will have to change is the % base as far as what it means since this favors speed wise newer techs such as electronics, but doesn't do the same for agricutulture.

          Also the social advances I will be handling for the most part while Rich will be handling most of the military section. We'll share the rest.

          Which Love Hina Girl Are You?
          Mitsumi Otohime
          Oh dear! Are you even sure you answered the questions correctly?) Underneath your confused exterior, you hold fast to your certainties and seek to find the truth about the things you don't know. While you may not be brimming with confidence and energy, you are content with who you are and accepting of both your faults and the faults of others. But while those around you love you deep down, they may find your nonchalance somewhat infuriating. Try to put a bit more thought into what you are doing, and be more aware of your surroundings.

          Comment


          • #6
            Richard
            I still believe a randomness factor may be desirable. If only to remove the certainty of recieving an application. As an alternative the tech tree could have some small randomness factor built into it when each game is created. This would then only impact at the beginning of the game during setup and would othewise operate as you described. We could limit the percentage variations to a 5% range or less based on a player setting for randomness.

            Note: Last night I "discovered" that picric acid was used as a yellow dye for nearly 125 years before the fact that it was a high explosive was finally realised. A number of factories had gone boom in the meantime. This was apparently a completely accidental discovery about 150 years before other high explosives. If it was realised when originally made it would have been used as a new explosive, for certain.

            -Paul Krenske

            Comment


            • #7
              Richard
              I have read your message and can I just get something clear. if something is discovered at 20% and is double effect at 25% does that percentage stay fixed or relative as other applications are discovered while moving up the tech. For example does a new item discovered at 40% double by 45% or does it need to go to 50%?

              My opinion is that the percentages should remain fixed if only for our own minds sakes while placing applications in the correct position.

              We may be able to define the number of 100% improvement steps that can take effect in the techs definition. This would limit all muskets to a 100% range of efectiveness while we could allow rifles to cover a 200% range etc.

              Comment


              • #8
                Niiice :-)

                some comments on tech model structure:

                The only tweak I imagine could be given to the structure is on something I would could level 0 techs:
                This came to me when I tried to understand the position of mathematics in the tech model. Mathematics is basically a language...some say the universal language of science (lets call them hard sciences opposing the "soft" social ones)
                And what is true for mathematics and hard science, some people say is also true for a cultures language and "soft" sciences.
                It can be argued that you can only get so far as your language capabilities allow you to organize and structure ideas.

                What I suggest is that the tech model as two basic "level 0" techs: one for "hard sciences": mathematics, which will influence all physical sciences (earth/engeniering/biology etc.
                The other level 0 tech is more controversial but should somehow be included. I would call it native language development. It should be the sum of the artistic development of the culture which reflects its ability to express it self in different and new ways.
                On a second thought I even think that this Level 0 tech should influence research development rate on every other level 1 techs and even be used as a prerequesit for allmost every other tech
                Mathematics and language development should also be influenced by the positive feedback of progress in specific techs, mathematics would be positively influenced mainly by the hard sicences while language development would be influenced by the soft sciences (but mainly by the arts techs).
                regression of this techs sould also be a major factor in the loss of technological capability (2nd thought: education level could/sould affect a lot the language development)

                By the way there is a theory saying that the starting point for human evolution into reason was its growing ability to comunicate and that new techs where acquired and developed as new forms of comunication where developed.


                Some comments on natural resources related techs
                Level 2: geology - geology is a natural science and as such uses knowledge from several other sciences, maybe it should be a vital tech being influenced by physics, chemistry, mapping (maybe you should see biology in the same light also)
                Level 3: tectonic plates theory - requirement geology 75%, affected only by geology (under the natural sciences approach stated above). Applications - Generic resource evaluation provided as a average resource size map, seismic/volcanic risk evaluation centers with seismic/vulcanic risk maps available.

                Level 3: mining - this should perhaps be stated has mining engeniering with no requirments: should be influenced by mechanical engeniering 50%, civil engeniering 50%.
                Applications:
                -mining infrastructure, mining eng 0% and would affect extraction rate vs investment rate
                - underground mines, requirement mining eng 25% ,


                Level 3: resource prospection - requirements none: development influenced only by geology. Applications - resource evaluation (it affects the degree to which the civ knows how much resources it has and can potentialy be extracted).
                Geological Survey - state infrastructure that can be used by the state to make broad or specific resource oriented investments in prospection, requirements prospection 20% (it is a rather early state priority)

                Level 3: Resource refinement: requirements none, influenced by geology 50%(more a sum of geology and physics and chemistry and mettalurgy...) and mechanical engeniering 50%
                Applications - Refinery (resource pecific?), resource refinement 40%, this is a resource processing infrastructure (this is for fun factor, you might not be able to get the mines but you may destroy the refineries)
                - Deffine resource recovery capability, nowdays we know that average bedrock has 15-25% alluminium but we are totally unable to extract this alluminium in a cost efficient way (some of this alluminium we cant get it at all) We know it is there, we can take it from the ground and deliver it to treatment facilities but we cant squeeze the juice out. Your capacity to refine/treat the ore you extract through mining should be simulated in the game.
                This should can be used as a modiffier to the mining capacity of the civ and be expressed in the following way:
                (ex: your "refinement level" allows you to separte 40% of all gold extracted)
                mining production: 100 tons of gold extracted per year
                resource produced 40 kg of gold per year
                This refinement tech can be used to simulate proper resource production rates for different civs, and specially allow for a more resource dependent civ to invest in this technology so that it can explore as much of the resource he has as he can.

                Note that these techs are thought for a resource model that takes into account things like resource size, availability/depletion , location, etc
                Henrique Duarte

                Comment


                • #9
                  These is lots of stuff to reply to. I'll do what I have time for, starting with the earliest.

                  Rodrigo:
                  ---
                  I'm wondering about how RPs are produced and the link with other models.
                  ---
                  This has not yet been determined exactly. Population and trade will be the main things that determine science growth. So a big civ with contact with other civilizations will have a big growth in all sciences.

                  Physical science growth is also heavily influenced by your economy. The more you make and use stuff, the better you get at it. Social science growth is influenced by social factors like the amount of froodom people have.
                  ---
                  FE if you have a scenario like Europe in mid-ages under a very rigid and intolerant christian church, you should expect developing new techs would be much harder.
                  ---
                  This is simply not true for most techs. In Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire, there was constant and steady growth in most fields of practical technical knowledge. Farming, engineering, and manufacturing technologies were all improving. A peasant in 1500 had a much better standard of living than a poor Roman. The art in this time period was not as good, but the average people were much better off.
                  ---
                  Also, what about government policies? Under a dictartorship probably less liberties the people have may impact on RP production. Finally, the economic system should also play a part. Under communism the lack of private property should decrease RP production because a normal guy isn't able to take a benefit from an invention and so people is less inclined to invent things.
                  ---
                  We had planned on this.

                  Mark:

                  I don't have time now to read the old thread. I'll get beck to you on this.

                  LGJ:

                  I know that the percentages will need to be rescaled. It is just easier to work with in this format. Also, remember that all techs do not need the same effort to raise. The constants in the dP equation can be changed for each tech.

                  Krenske:

                  Good idea. Randomizing the tree slightly at the start and having that apply to everyone would be a problem-free way to add uncertainty. That should be a good starting option, but players should still have the option to keep things unchanged.

                  I don't think it is possible to accurately model things like the dye example. In our model, it would simply be assumed that it wasn't discovered until the primary use was found. The same thing happened with oil; People knew it was around for thousands of years before they started using it for fuel.
                  ---
                  I have read your message and can I just get something clear. if something is discovered at 20% and is double effect at 25% does that percentage stay fixed or relative as other applications are discovered while moving up the tech. For example does a new item discovered at 40% double by 45% or does it need to go to 50%?
                  ---
                  After a 5% increase, all things are 1.5 times as good as they were when they were invented. After the tech raises 10%, the thing is twice as good as it was when it was invented. Remember that this is an exponential scale, and any 10% increase is a doubling of base knowledge.
                  ---
                  My opinion is that the percentages should remain fixed if only for our own minds sakes while placing applications in the correct position.
                  ---
                  Why shouldn't the percentages remain fixed? The scale makes every percentage increase identical.
                  ---
                  We may be able to define the number of 100% improvement steps that can take effect in the techs definition. This would limit all muskets to a 100% range of efectiveness while we could allow rifles to cover a 200% range etc.
                  ---
                  I disagree here. You can always get a slightly better musket. Assume Musket comes at 30% firearms. If for some reason you make musketeers at Firearms 70%, the musketeers will be better than they would be at Firearms 50%. At 50%, your knowledge has quadrupled and the muskets are three times as good as they originally were. At 70% your firearms knowledge has been multiplied by 16 and the muskets are five times as good as they originally were. Thus things can still improve but you get hit by such diminishing returns that the old thing is obsolete. The new application that you would get at 70% would be 16 times as good as the musket was originally. It is over three times as good as the musket, but the musket is still better than it was.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A little while back you asked for a list from the other Models, so here are those I’ve come up with so far. Some are listed twice and others you already have listed, but it’s for my benefit (I'll be using this document as I detail the models).

                    Disaster Model Techs:
                    Seismology
                    Meteorology
                    Volcanology (not sure if this is a true science, but I’m certain I’ve heard the term before)
                    Pesticides
                    Insecticides
                    Refrigeration
                    Waste Disposal (toxic waste and biohazard waste)
                    Genetic Engineering
                    Entomology


                    Disease Model Techs:
                    Quarantine
                    Vaccinations
                    Inoculations
                    Pesticides
                    Insecticides
                    Sewer Systems
                    Water Treatment Plants (an application / infrastructure)
                    Genetic Engineering
                    Pasteurization
                    Refrigeration
                    Entomology

                    P.S. I just wanted to complement you guys on a job well done. Great model!
                    [This message has been edited by Toubabo_Koomi (edited February 14, 2000).]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Richard,
                      I like the fact you like the randomisation at start idea. I also now understand the fixed exponential nature of the system. I also understand how completely accidental discovery is almost impossible to simulate.
                      (By the way oil was used as a fuel in areas where it was of high enough quality, its problems were that it was a lower quality light source until refining etc. Oil was also used as a sealant and a natural water inhibitor long before its use as a pure fuel.)

                      < I have snipped a question I asked, I knew the answer >
                      [This message has been edited by Krenske (edited February 14, 2000).]

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Henrique:

                        Your comments are good and your observations valid. I'll consider them one at a time:

                        Level 0 Techs:

                        I didn't make it clear that Math and the arts are going to be more important than most helper techs. They will have an effect about halfway between the vital techs and a normal helper tech.

                        Your proposal is really a cosmetic change. The mechanics of the model actually make little distinction between the various layers, except in the way you can spend RP's on them. If we do have Level 0 techs, their definition would have to be something like:

                        An aspect of knowledge so fundamental that it cannot be changed by any direct action form the player.

                        By that definition, native language skill would be a Level 0 tech but Math would not. I don't think we really need the extra level. Level 1 already had basic, broad fields of knowledge. Anything above that would be under the social and economic models.
                        ---
                        Some comments on natural resources related techs
                        Level 2: geology - geology is a natural science and as such uses knowledge from several other sciences, maybe it should be a vital tech being influenced by physics, chemistry, mapping (maybe you should see biology in the same light also)
                        ---
                        I know this. I left out the helper techs so the list would be easier to read and understand. Once we agree on what needs to be included, we will add connections between those techs.
                        ---
                        Level 3: tectonic plates theory
                        ---
                        Good Job. This kind of thing is exactly what we are looking for.
                        ---
                        Level 3: mining engineering
                        Level 3: resource prospection
                        ---
                        I think you are right about mining needing to be split up. The combined Mining was an artifact from the old system. Also, mining is a practical Level 3 kind of thing.
                        ---
                        Level 3: Resource refinement
                        ---
                        I agree on most of your points. However, I think that the tech model is not the place to put your formulas. They should probably be in the ecom/resource model with your basic tech percent as an input. I expect that the same thing will be done for agriculture; farm output per acre is modified by a factor that is based on the agricultural tech percentages.

                        Also, I don't see how Geology has any impact on this. Why does a refinery manager need to know anything about he geology begind the ore that is getting hauled into the plant? He just takes it off the rail cart and runs it through the refinery. This is more of a Chemistry application.

                        Toubabo_Koomi:

                        I'll get to work on putting those techs into the tree.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Note:

                          This answers the question Krenske deleted. He asked about future techs. This is good general info, so I'll leave it.

                          Krenske:

                          We were going to try to make the basic tech tree go to about 2050 in a realistic way, based on what is currently being researched. I keep up with this as best I can, and while I can't claim to be able to predict anything, I am confident that I can research and make something that should be fairly accurate. At current rates of tech growth, this will sent most Level 1 and 2 techs to about 130%. We will probably double our knowledge three times in the next 50 years, assuming that no horrible disaster hits.

                          After this point, we have given LGJ the freedom to add whatever sci-fi gizmos he wants. 2050 will be the cutoff between near future and far future.

                          Of course, this is be based on real time, not game time.

                          This brings me to the issue of game difficulty. I think that the game should be quite challenging. At high difficulty levels, players should not be able to be as successful as reality until they are experienced and have played several games. Otherwise we have cyborg legions in 1855.

                          PS A good website for information about current science advancemants is www.sciencedaily.com They summarize trade journals and include mundane things, which are generally more influential than the flashy stuff that makes the popular news. For example, I just read about a new process that allows large, pure crystals to be grown quickly and economically. This kind of thing is what makes the foundation for future advancements.
                          [This message has been edited by Richard Bruns (edited February 14, 2000).]

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Richard

                            I would like to clarify why geology influences what I called refinement.
                            Your ability to apply mechanical/chemical processes to enrich a natural resource you extracted depends heavily on your detailed knowledge of the exact nature of that resource - and that is fundamentaly related with geology (depending on the resource usually a specific field of geology is used). I will try and give an actual example:
                            Imagine Mine A is using gravitational table to separate iron ores according to density values, the ore suffers a previous "smashing into +- homogenous dimension" before entering the density separation process. (sorry don´t know the term in english). Now iron quality is influenced by sulfur content, lets assume that the ore has occasional pyrite (S+Fe). A petrographic (geology sub-field) control of the ore is made on a continuous base to evaluate the the average size of pyrite grains. According to the petrographic study results the "smashing" procedure his changed to obtain optimal grain size of the ore to be separated in the gravitational table.
                            Now this is only a small example, and being a metalogeny geologist, I could do a bit of detailed research on every mine you can think about and explain the influence of geological study in the ore treatment.
                            I confess I may have overrated geology in refinement :-), but believe me that without sound geological study of the ore you are treating you might not even be able to find a technical solution to the treatment of the ore.
                            Henrique Duarte

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Henrique: I understand now. But rather than having all of Geology as a helper, we should make a Level 3 Petrography tech and have that influence the refining process.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X