The Chiron Chronicle: Discussions (4)

[[LordLMP]]

Out of Curiosity, does Blast Rifle Crag have the same governor as before?

-LMP

[Sprayber]

no. Pontas was removed as Governor when it went back to Spartan control. While Kessel was friends with Pontas and Pontas did prevent the base from becoming a Pirate base. No Spartan Governor could surivive loosing a base. The fact that he did prevent BRC from becomming a Pirate base saved him from being shot.

And as far as infiltrating Sparta. Sparta Command is the center of everything Spartan. Everything that has to do with security and itelligence radiates from Sparta Command. If you infiltrate other bases all you will get is last years news. Besides, after all the mess caused by the probe teams during the last war, every base is brimming with anti probe defenses. Including many probe teams per base. In fact it is rather hard for Sparta to field probe teams outside Spartan territory cause most of the effort is concentrated inside Sparta. Everyone that gets into a Spartan base is there becuase they are supposed to be. There is room for a little spying and i will conceed that a data angel probe could do it. One of our many benifits from close observation of the Hiverian Secret Police. (Thank you Good Chairman. )

Sea bases are a different story. Fleet anchorage would be a vulerable spot for probe actions since they are not as interconnected as the land bases.

[Sprayber]

I'll wait and comment further when you use them or whatever. But if they use chemicals to attack the individual human then they are the same as nerve gas right unless they are sporific gas pods. Which wouldnt really bother the Spartans cause we have plenty of that and can outfit other units to carry them with relitive ease. If they are some sort of Psi attack then our special project the Neural Amplifier should work just as well on that as it does native life forms. with some modifications


hmm. i just remembered Operation Market Garden. Hope it turns out better than the allied market garden aganst the germans.

[Guardian]

Ummm... I believe the UN Charter uses the phrase "chemical warfare", not "nerve gas" specifically.
So, essentially, anything chemical is a Charter violation...
The Charter also bans any weapon causing "unnecessary pain and suffering".

Hint, hint, Spartans / Hive / Believers... this could be your ban on PSI warfare, and it's already in place!

[Guardian]

Originally posted by Guardian
Ummm... I believe the UN Charter uses the phrase "chemical warfare", not "nerve gas" specifically.
So, essentially, anything chemical is a Charter violation...
The Charter also bans any weapon causing "unnecessary pain and suffering".

Hint, hint, Spartans / Hive / Believers... this could be your ban on PSI warfare, and it's already in place!

This is the beauty of the UN Charter... it says so much without really being specific about much of anything...

Pros: It's very flexible.
Cons: It gets kind of hard to enforce it properly because there are few absolutes, and so it tends to boil down to a matter of what you think it should mean.

Also, some times it can get hard to determine where to draw the line or even see the point...

Like, what is "unnecessary pain and suffering" and is there any weapon that does not cause it?

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by SMAC Fanatic
O...k, so basic human liberties, rights and freedoms mean absolutely nothing to you then...

Really, don't get me started with this. My Politics teacher ADORES playing devil's advocate and I had an hour-long argument with him over this.

OK. I will not go into depth in that case.

Basic Human Liberties rights and freedoms are only Basic because Humans granted them to themselves- there are no "basic" freedoms in reality- in reality, there should be little freedom because the Law enforces safety, and with too much freedom, people will likely break the law and endanger others.

[Mr. President]

Basic Human Liberties rights and freedoms are only Basic because Humans granted them to themselves- there are no "basic" freedoms in reality- in reality, there should be little freedom because the Law enforces safety, and with too much freedom, people will likely break the law and endanger others.

I've got to agree with the Cloud on this one.

I believe the original point was that there are certain advantages to a more dictatorian style of government, stability and security being the most obvious. People are not inherently responsible. The immaculate operation of American and British soldiers and civilians during World War II did not come about because of democracy; they were cultural characteristics shaped by years of social training.

Democracy has not failed yet; but that time may come soon. It was originally designed for ancient Greek city-states, which were relatively isolated and relatively homogeneous. In the 21st century, as populations grow and diversify, the number of conflicting opinions and views may cause governments to metamorphosize into bureaucratic swamplands, and render that fickle beast "public opinion" not only inefficient but outrightly dangerous.

If you want proof that a dictatorial government can operate smoothly and effectively, you need only look at Malaysia and Singapore. Neither is democratic by Western standards (the Singaporean security apparatus continuously monitors its own citizens; Malaysia has an Internal Security Act allowing the police to detain suspects indefinitely without trial), but they are the strongest economies and the most stable countries in South-East Asia.

***

These new Pirate weapons wouldn't correspond to Soporific Gas, would they? As I understand it (and as the Alien Crossfire manual puts it), that weapon does not involve toxic chemicals but rather sleep-inducing resonations ("I'll just make soothing ocean sounds for you" - Homer Simpson) and tranquilizing fumes. It sounds more like tear gas than sarin, and probably would not be prohibited by the Charter.

But I'm glad to see we're branching out from the letter of the game. I thought the whole point of this activity was to go beyond the in-game Datalinks.

[[LordLMP]]

Originally posted by Sprayber
no. Pontas was removed as Governor when it went back to Spartan control. While Kessel was friends with Pontas and Pontas did prevent the base from becoming a Pirate base. No Spartan Governor could surivive loosing a base. The fact that he did prevent BRC from becomming a Pirate base saved him from being shot.

And as far as infiltrating Sparta. Sparta Command is the center of everything Spartan. Everything that has to do with security and itelligence radiates from Sparta Command. If you infiltrate other bases all you will get is last years news. Besides, after all the mess caused by the probe teams during the last war, every base is brimming with anti probe defenses. Including many probe teams per base. In fact it is rather hard for Sparta to field probe teams outside Spartan territory cause most of the effort is concentrated inside Sparta. Everyone that gets into a Spartan base is there becuase they are supposed to be. There is room for a little spying and i will conceed that a data angel probe could do it. One of our many benifits from close observation of the Hiverian Secret Police. (Thank you Good Chairman. )

Sea bases are a different story. Fleet anchorage would be a vulerable spot for probe actions since they are not as interconnected as the land bases.

Yes, but I am saying the Pirates re-infiltrated Spartan Federation, avoiding Sparta Command because of the Central of Everything thing. The Infiltrators just infiltrated just incase they are needed, and some are Spartans which Pirates was able to convince (i am sure there is malcontents and troublemakers Pirates can take advantage of), and there is also Mind Control/Brainwash :P They did during a time Sparta was vulnerable to probe teams, before the Spartans recreated their INtelligence and put probes all over the place for Security. But the Infiltrators are keeping quiet, hiding and been in Sparta for awhile, so they blended to be part of the Spartan Society. some are already spartans. Since the Pirates and Spartans have similar ideologies, makes it simpler for a Pirate probe to fit in. But in the past 10 years or so, the Infiltrators were preparing for the next war, quietly and gradually...to avoid detection. The Spartan Security would seriously have to go in a big witch hunt which would disrupte some parts of society to find them. And good percentage of them are nto IN the base, within base radius, yes, but not all in the Base. don't have to agree, but i am just saying

Svensgaard doesn't like the spartans because they are to similar in somethings to the Pirates. Both into Power and Anti-Knowledge ideologies. Both lack in Industry at the beginning due to Military and society. Svensgaard as good reason to consider the Spartans the most dangerous. Svensgaard does agree with some of the Spartan policies, like sovereignty and so on...

So its either the Twins are best friends Or the worst enemies. When war will come, want to make sort of a honorable war, where both sides respect each other... without the can of HIGH hatred during the Spartan/Peacekeeper Wars. Both sides will be weaken at the end... Svensgaard will Officially Declare War before the Pirates attacks...usually just before their first attack first happens... unless the Spartan strike first. Svensgaard wants to try to create a scenario where it will be hard to tell who striked whom first. Would rather keep the war faction vs faction, not drag all of Chiron. When the aliens come, would like to see the Spartans and Pirates able to fight together... which will awe Lal too as the Pirates as done the unthinkable... to be able to be friends with the Spartans soon after a long drawn out War. Even then, be able to fight a war without a single Atrocity.... well, there may be arguments concerning the Porcupine and Sweetdream, but the Pirats won't go into slaughtering innocent people, create fear, etc... So they won't badly treat any captured Spartans... Svensgaard will simply get them lock up at Prison Island until the war ends...of course, after a bad cop Pirate style interrogation which most spartans will be able to tough it out Another thing, would like the Pirates to be able to capture a Few Spartan ships hey, the Pirates still have some Hive built foils from previous conflicts... and one or two Believer foils from the Nessus Incident.

Anyway, want the elections to be over so i can figured out what to do! also want to take care of this how much units can a faction support too before Properly doing the military stats of the Pirates before any war starts.

Oh and what the Solo posted about the Pirates sort of annoys Svensgaard, realizing again how similar the Spartans are to the Pirates.

-LMP

[[LordLMP]]

Originally posted by Sprayber
I'll wait and comment further when you use them or whatever. But if they use chemicals to attack the individual human then they are the same as nerve gas right unless they are sporific gas pods. Which wouldnt really bother the Spartans cause we have plenty of that and can outfit other units to carry them with relitive ease. If they are some sort of Psi attack then our special project the Neural Amplifier should work just as well on that as it does native life forms. with some modifications


hmm. i just remembered Operation Market Garden. Hope it turns out better than the allied market garden aganst the germans.

More hints:

Sweatdream is base on Soporific, so base on Resonance and hint PSI active compounds, but Neural Amplifier shouldn't be able to defend from it...but won't kill anyone...well, won;t be DIRECTLY cause by Sweatdream like nerve. Also, Neural Amplifier won't be able to defend from it.... beside, not even completed may be rushed, but doubt it will be completed within a year or two...which i am any war will start before then :P not like the pirates will extensively use mindworms :P also base on something in X-COM: Apocalypse.

Porcupine is base on something i saw in a trailer for some Playstation(2) game. Also base on something from the Honor Harrington books. Only intend to use it once :P and not in a Spartan base. Of course, some other factions may try to acquire the tech... But after Svensgaard sees the result from its first use, he may just scrap the whole thing, get all files on it destroyed/deleted. Anyway, the files to make it is only located at Safe Haven, and not in connected to any Public Networks. Would have to send a Probe Team to Safe Haven to try and getting it...and i can only see the Data Angels have any chance at all to acquire the files. Pirate security is keeping watch of Angel probes, despite being friends friendly rivalry Svensgaard treats it.

So there will be a argument over those after their use or/and after the war, to wether put Sanctions on the Pirates or not, but the Pirates will be using them wisely and to avoid civilian deaths.

-LMP

[[LordLMP]]

Originally posted by Guardian
Ummm... I believe the UN Charter uses the phrase "chemical warfare", not "nerve gas" specifically.
So, essentially, anything chemical is a Charter violation...
The Charter also bans any weapon causing "unnecessary pain and suffering".

Hint, hint, Spartans / Hive / Believers... this could be your ban on PSI warfare, and it's already in place!

Then technicly, Soporific Gas should be banned :P But maybe it isn't ban because it doesn't cause"unnecessary pain and suffering". and also because the Peacekeepers extensively use Soporific gas during the Second Spartan War

Sweatdream will not be causing "unnecessary pain and suffering", unless the spartans consider possible after effect headaches as pain and suffering... but that could be solved with Tylenol/Advil/similar drugs and the spartans would be admitting they are to much of wimps to take it Or possible tempory feeling of numbness throughout or some parts of the body.

As for PSI warfare, they may use that, but the Cult and gaians would argue that PSI doesn't always involve Pain and Horror.

-LMP

[[LordLMP]]

***

These new Pirate weapons wouldn't correspond to Soporific Gas, would they? As I understand it (and as the Alien Crossfire manual puts it), that weapon does not involve toxic chemicals but rather sleep-inducing resonations ("I'll just make soothing ocean sounds for you" - Homer Simpson) and tranquilizing fumes. It sounds more like tear gas than sarin, and probably would not be prohibited by the Charter.

But I'm glad to see we're branching out from the letter of the game. I thought the whole point of this activity was to go beyond the in-game Datalinks.

Soporific Gas ain't sleep-inducing, it has something which creates some kind of resonance....and Lowers Morale. Sopo can turn a Tough Spartan Soldier into a coward.... yet, it isn't PSI gas.

Sweetdream base on Sopo. does effect the brain, but doesn't cause damage unless the person happens to have an allergy to it...which the spartans can use in the debate wether the Pirates committed an Atrocity or not. Not just teh Brain, but effects the whole body.

As for Porcupine, as nothing to do with Chemicals. But is a weapon that can be considered as an Atrocity depending where you use it. The Pirates will not use it against a Spartan base... But this weapon could be use in a Conventional Missile, but I don't plan for the Pirates to do so.

We can go beyond what the Datalinks says, just don't want to go overboard with it and ruins the SMAX like atmosphere. There is many military type inventions i can think of to use in CC, but shouldn't ruin the SMAX like atmosphere. I can't wait for Orbital Space flight can have a moon race for Nessus and Pholus...but the Aliens may ruin that idea until they are defeated...which may take half to a century to do so. I expect to elminate the Usurpers before the Caretakers Caretakers may last longer then the Usurpers simply because they are more peaceful also, would neet to see wether the Charter applies to the aliens as well, because in the game, it isn't considered an atrocity to use Nerve Gas on them or genetic warfare other bad things. Also, SMAX doesn't seem to have Bio missiles

Chemical/Bio/Psionic warfares can so easily be expanded with SMAX techs

Nerve Staple... this is one thing i wonder about... and the best view i see Nerve Staples is one from Dragon Sun, where the Hive rebels discover a chamber of Nerve Stapled people....Nerve Stapled all over their bodies...creating incruciating Pain. So won't simply turn Drone Rioters to Actual mindless Drones.

-LMP

[Guardian]

Originally posted by [LordLMP]

Then technicly, Soporific Gas should be banned :P But maybe it isn't ban because it doesn't cause"unnecessary pain and suffering". and also because the Peacekeepers extensively use Soporific gas during the Second Spartan War

Ah... I guess we would have some kind of definition of "chemical warfare" that left a few loopholes open... say, it involves the use of toxic chemicals to cause injury or death or something along those lines...

Soporific Gas isn't toxic, it just messes with your head a little...
It also causes no injury or death, nor "unnecessary pain and suffering", as you say...

Sounds like Sweetdream could use that same loophole...

As for PSI warfare, they may use that, but the Cult and gaians would argue that PSI doesn't always involve Pain and Horror.

Also, the Charter is quite specific about the point that everyone have a right to defend themselves...

[[LordLMP]]

Before I give to much of a impression that the Pirates are invincible... There is one place the Spartans could try to hit which would hurt the Pirates if they succeed... Pirate Island.

It has three bases...the island is technicly the biggest landmass the Pirates control. The Island is important has there mines, the Marine Corp headquarter and the Aerospace Corp headquarter. It is one of the Main center or production for ships and aircrafts for the Nautilus Pirates. There is a reason why Svensgaard quickly put down a rebellion there before.

I expect the Spartans to try to attack there after the Pirates initial offensives.......

-LMP

[DarkCloud]

Mr President- actually in Malaysia there is quite a bit of dissent- perhaps if the dictatorship-democracy was done better... I cannot say much about Singapore, we may need to ask phoenixcager if we want to see how it works there...

-

I believe that in the game the people could argue about PSI Warfare, but, considering that the animals use it natively, the CUlt/Gaians have a good argument against eradication of the animals- any environmentalist would agree with them.

-Cant' say much about sophoric gas, but it is not included in the 'real' game is is? If it isn't then we probably shouldn't add it to the game.

[Mr. President]

The Usurpers are going to be eliminated?! That's really too bad. We could have a very interesting storyline about how Marr learns to respect humans and the human leaders learn to not throw up while talking to Marr. I think, though, that what some have termed the "official" story, which is pieced together from various Alien Crossfire blurbs, implies vicious, nearly unending conflict between Progenitors and humans. No interludes or blurbs mention a resolution. But we should at least allow time for Marr to write his two (known) books, "Courage : To Question" and "Human : Nature".

Biological weapons are an interesting point. Maybe, what to us is a cold, to the Progenitors is the Black Plague?