NFL - Are You Ready For Some Football?! - Off Season

[Ben Kenobi]

But apparently any data that doesn't support your dislike of Michael Vick must be deemed "insufficient."

No, my dislike for Vick has to do with the fact that he killed dogs just for the fun of it.

His football stats speak for himself.

As for Kolb, I require more than a few games to have an accurate assessment, but apparently JRabbit has a crystal ball and *knows* that Kolb is washed up.

[Ben Kenobi]

I notice that JRabbit seems awed by the statistical argument. Thanks JRabbit. Andy Reid is the new Mora, without the press conferences.

[-Jrabbit]

My actual point is simple -- so simple even you should be able to comprehend it, Ben:

The Eagles have to choose a starting QB. They have chosen Michael Vick over Kevin Kolb, based on the goal of winning the championship of the NFL. It's an entirely supportable point of view.

It could be the wrong choice. But they know that they can fail with Vick and reload faster than Kevin Kolb is likely to learn and mature. And in today's NFL, full of maybes, wannabes and shouldabeens, it's the smart choice.

I have never said that Kevin Kolb is washed up. He's just the latest version of Matt Cassell. Maybe good, maybe great, maybe just a big tease -- it's all speculative, and all in the future. With talent like DeSean, LeSean et al., if believe you can contend for the Super Bowl, why would you put your money on someone with no track record when you have one of the greatest pure athletes ever to play QB? Kevin Kolb will be traded to a team with limited upside, great need, and a couple years available for development and hope -- someone like the Cardinals or Seahawks.

[-Jrabbit]

You're welcome.

Now tell your story walking, douchebag.

[SlowwHand]

I read that Favre offered to work with Newton. If this is an indication of his smarts, then Carolina is hosed.

Cam Newton working daily with Chris Weinke
Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on May 13, 2011, 7:08 PM EDT
AP

No. 1 overall pick Cam Newton can’t work with the Panthers right now. Instead, he’s getting tutored by a former Panthers quarterback who had his fair share of college success.

Chris Weinke is working with Newton for 1-2 hours a day at the IMG Institute in Bradenton, Florida, helping to “refine” Newton’s game

[Al B. Sure!]

No, my dislike for Vick has to do with the fact that he killed dogs just for the fun of it.

He got two years in prison for it. Two ****ing years. For killing some ****ing animals. He served his time for his crimes and has paid his due. What the **** happened to forgiveness? I guess you forget that part of Jesus' message.


And what does Andy Reid's Super Bowl record have to do with anything?

[Al B. Sure!]

To add to Jrabbit's point, I've seen all the QB's who excelled under Andy Reid's system. Mike Vick's success actually isn't all that surprising because Andy Reid has made a lot of QB's look really good over the years. But that's where the risk with Kolb comes in. Kolb could be a mirage.

I present to you the other QB's who got starts during Reid's tenure in Philly and their stories:

AJ Feeley

In 2002, AJ Feeley was a third-string QB behind McNabb and Koy Detmer. Feeley hadn't started a football game since his junior year of college.

McNabb and Detmer went down and AJ Feeley came out of nowhere going 4-1 as a starter, and leading the Eagles into the playoffs. A year later, he was traded to the Dolphins for a second round pick. A SECOND ROUND PICK FOR AJ FEELEY. The Dolphins thought AJ Feeley was their franchise QB but the successor to Marino ended up going 3-5, and throwing more INTs than TDs before finally being benched.

He wound back up in Philly. What does he do? He picks up right where he left off in Philly as if his suckitude in Miami never happened.

McNabb went down in 2006 and Jeff Garcia got banged up. Feeley put up 321 yards and 3 TDs in a Week 17 win.

The next season, sans Garcia now, McNabb goes down again. Feeley throws for 335 yards and 3 TDs in a near-upset 31-28 loss to the 2007 Patriots.

The Eagles release him on Sept. 6, 2009. Nine days later, the Panthers pick him up. He backs up Matt Moore then backs up Bradford in St. Louis a year later.

It's interesting to compare AJ Feeley's Philly stats with his Miami ones:

Philly:
4-3 as starter; 58.6% 2177 yards 16 TDs 14 INTs
Miami:
3-5 as starter; 53.7% 1893 yards 11 TDs 15 INTs


Jeff Garcia

Jeff Garcia had been a 3x Pro Bowler in San Fran but his stints in Detroit and Cleveland had erased the memory of him being one of the league's better QB's. He went a terrible 4-11 in 15 games between those two franchises and played terribly, losing any respect as a starter in the NFL.

He winds up McNabb's backup in Philly. McNabb goes down and the Eagles are fighting for their playoff lives at 5-5. Garcia takes the reins and goes 5-1, catapulting the Eagles into an unlikely playoff berth. He throws 12 TDs to only 2 INTs as a starter, defeats the Giants in the playoffs, only to lose a 27-24 nail-biter to the Saints.

Garcia leverages his success in Philly to get a short-lived starting gig in Tampa and currently plays for the UFL.

5-1... 12 TDs to only 2 INTs... a wildcard playoff win over a divisional rival...


Koy Detmer

The long-time backup never got much starting time under Andy Reid. During AJ Feeley's break-out, Detmer had been the backup to McNabb but went down with an injury after only one game. He was effective in that game, however, completing 69.2% of his passes, throwing for 227 yards 2 TDs and rushing for a third TD without turning over the ball in a 38-17 spanking of the Niners.

Detmer only started 3 games under Reid but went 2-1 in those games with 5 TD passes and 1 rushing score.


Mike McMahon

Mike McMahon played so badly during the Super Bowl hangover Eagles season in the midst of the Terrell Owens controversy and injuries all over the Eagles team, that he would seem to be a counter-example to QB's thriving under Andy Reid. Yet Mike McMahon had his moments that were better than any he had in Detroit.

McMahon had 14 career starts in his 5-year career with only 3 wins. Two of those wins came in Philly.

When McNabb went down, McMahon, in his first start in 3 years, promptly threw 298 yards, 1 TD and rushed for a second TD with 1 INT. He then had some ugly games but finished off the season with a respectable 234 yard 2 TD 1 INT outing.

Considering just how banged up the Eagles had been that season, brutalized on the offensive line, TO suspended, making the likes of Greg Lewis and a rookie Reggie Brown the only pass targets, Westbrook went down with an injury, forcing rookie Ryan Moats into the starter's role... it's amazing McMahon wasn't even worse... Ryan ****ing Moats in the backfield with Greg Lewis as your go-to receiver? yikes.


Doug Pederson

Doug Pederson was the starting QB of the Eagles in Andy Reid's first season while rookie McNabb learned from the sidelines. Pederson had a rough year and was ultimately benched for McNabb but compared to the rest of his career, Pederson was his best in Philly. He only started for the Eagles in 1999 and for the Browns the next year.

Philly:
2-7 as starter; 1276 yards 7 TDs 9 INTs
Cleveland:
1-7 as starter; 1047 yards 2 TDs 8 INTs


Now where will Kevin Kolb fit in compared to those previous backup Eagles QB's who have had success with the Eagles and little anywhere else? Jrabbit mentioned Kevin Kolb being a Matt Cassel type. It's conceivable he's an AJ Feeley type.

[Al B. Sure!]

I'm not saying he is but Kolb is similar to AJ Feeley in being a guy who can throw for 300+ yards and a pair of TDs but also throw a bunch of picks.

Hmm... the more I look at their stats, the more similar they look:

Feeley's Philly starts:
181 yards
190 yards 2 TD 1 INT
220 yards 2 TD 1 INT
253 yards 1 TD 2 INT
150 yards 1 INT
321 yards 3 TD (technically Garcia started but it was a Week 17 formality; Feeley played, not Garcia)
345 yards 3 TD 3 INT
220 yards 1 TD 4 INT

5-3 as starter 13 TDs 11 INTs (16 TD 14 INT overall including in relief)

Kolb's starts:
391 yards 2 TD 3 INT
327 yards 2 TD
24 yards (concussed)
253 yards 1 TD
326 yards 3 TD 1 INT
231 yards 1 TD 2 INT
162 yards 1 TD 3 INT

3-4 as starter 10 TDs 9 INTs (11 TDs 14 INTs overall)

Yeah, man... they're about the same.

I mean in Feeley's high yardage total game, he threw for 345 3 TD 3 INT; Kolb's: 391 2 TD 3 INT.
In Feeley's best overall game, he threw for 321 yards 3 TD; Kolb's best game: 326 yards 3 TD 1 INT
In Feeley's worst game, he threw 220 yards 1 TD 4 INT; Kolb's worst game: 162 yards 1 TD 3 INT.

And all the games in between are about the same... similar TD-INT numbers, similar yardage... Feeley just won more games!

And it's not like Feeley had anything close to Desean Jackson or Jeremy Maclin to throw to!

Feeley had a 78.6 QB rating in Philly. Kolb's is 73.2. Coincidentally, both have thrown 14 INTs in Eagles' green just Feeley has thrown 16 TDs to Kolb's 11.

As for the second level stats:
Feeley: 58.6% completion %; 5.2% TD %; 4.5% INT %; 7.0 Y/A
Kolb: 60.8% completion %; 3.4% TD %, 4.4% INT %; 6.5 Y/A

Going off stats alone, Feeley was better than Kolb. Considering Feeley was throwing to Todd Pinkston, James Thrash, an old Antonio Freeman, with Duce Staley and Dorsey Levens in the backfield and then in his second stint with the Eagles, Feeley had Kevin Curtis and Reggie Brown... while Kolb has been blessed with Desean Jackson, Jeremy Maclin, Brent Celek, and Lesean McCoy...

I'm really starting to think Kevin Kolb is AJ Feeley all over again. I had thought he was better than that but upon comparing his stats and games with Feeley's, Kolb's done less with more than AJ Feeley did.

[Donegeal]

Overall, 98% of Alby's posts are troll food.

[Ben Kenobi]

if believe you can contend for the Super Bowl, why would you put your money on someone with no track record when you have one of the greatest pure athletes ever to play QB

One, has any team with Vick as QB made the superbowl? No. Two, has Andy Reid made a superbowl? Once, and he lost.

Hey, you want to know a funny thing? The only time Reid made the Superbowl, he had to beat Vick to do it! That's hilarious.

We know that a brilliant Vick on this Eagles team was a KO return away from golfing this year. Are you really willing to make that call that Vick will lead you to the promised land, when even though he had a great season, it wasn't enough?

You are right that the Eagles have tons of talent on that team. Now, what do you think they could do without the boat that is Vick's contract, which they could use to invest on, maybe say an O-Line? The Eagles have weaknesses that were not addressed in the offseason that have nothing to do with Vick or Kolb. Not addressing those weaknesses is why I predict that they won't even make the playoffs.

They are a Vick injury away from the basement in their division.

[Ben Kenobi]

He got two years in prison for it. Two ****ing years. For killing some ****ing animals. He served his time for his crimes and has paid his due. What the **** happened to forgiveness? I guess you forget that part of Jesus' message.

I'm sure Vick would go right back to killing dogs for fun if he thought he would get away with it. Where's the remorse?

And what does Andy Reid's Super Bowl record have to do with anything?

The man couldn't win it with a better QB and a better team. What makes you think the Eagles are going anywhere this year?

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm really starting to think Kevin Kolb is AJ Feeley all over again. I had thought he was better than that but upon comparing his stats and games with Feeley's, Kolb's done less with more than AJ Feeley did.

I will laugh if he goes to Arizona and they make the playoffs easily with Kolb + Fitz.

[-Jrabbit]

One, has any team with Vick as QB made the superbowl? No. Two, has Andy Reid made a superbowl? Once, and he lost.

Irrelevant, as the alternative is Kolb, who has virtually no resume.

We know that a brilliant Vick on this Eagles team was a KO return away from golfing this year. Are you really willing to make that call that Vick will lead you to the promised land, when even though he had a great season, it wasn't enough?

You conveniently ignore the fact that if the vaunted K. Kolb had performed better than 2-3 in his starts, that Giants game would have been meaningless. The fact is, Kolb was one of the main reasons the Eagles' season was in jeopardy.

They are a Vick injury away from the basement in their division.

No different from the situation they would be in with Kolb. Another meaningless "point."

[Ben Kenobi]

You conveniently ignore the fact that if the vaunted K. Kolb had performed better than 2-3 in his starts, that Giants game would have been meaningless. The fact is, Kolb was one of the main reasons the Eagles' season was in jeopardy.

And if Vick were the promised One, why did Kolb win the starting job? I'm not convinced he brings anything to the table that Kolb does not. They went, what? 2-3 with Kolb and 8-3 with Vick? Had Vick lost that other game they would have been 7-4 with Vick. That would translate to an 10-6 season, which is exactly where they did finish.

Vick for a whole season would have been exactly where they ended up.

[Al B. Sure!]

And if Vick were the promised One, why did Kolb win the starting job? I'm not convinced he brings anything to the table that Kolb does not. They went, what? 2-3 with Kolb and 8-3 with Vick? Had Vick lost that other game they would have been 7-4 with Vick. That would translate to an 10-6 season, which is exactly where they did finish.

Vick for a whole season would have been exactly where they ended up.

How is this post supposed to make any sense? Vick didn't lose 'that other game' (what the hell game? The Giants-Eagles game that I have stricken from my memory?) so why are you taking it from him? Then if you have him going 7-4 and Kolb going 2-3 that's 9-7 combined. What do you mean that would translate to a 10-6 season?

And how the **** do you know what Vick would have done in those games Kolb started? I'm lost. Are you claiming instead of going 2-3 with Kolb, they would have gone 3-2 instead with Vick plus taking away a win Vick actually did earn (so he would have been 7-4 in those games he actually did play) which makes 10-6? What the ****? How is that supposed to make sense?

Really... I am lost. I see this...

Vick for a whole season would have been exactly where they ended up.

Are you somehow projecting where the Eagles would have been if Vick did not get hurt? How the ****? Straight pulling an end of season record out of your ass. WHAT THE ****?


The following is equally meaningless but at least it's not randomly assigning wins and loses... I could say Kolb going 2-3 is a .400 winning percentage so over 16 games, Kolb would have gone 6.4-9.6. VIck's .720 winning percentage puts him at 11.6-4.4.

So 6-10 with Kolb; 12-4 with Vick. As far as guessing at wins on games that a player never played on, that's about as meaningful as your nonsense.