AHL- Apolyton Hockey League 09/10 (II): We're very perverse

[Asher]

I'd only be surprised if someone actually cared to understand but w/e. You know, this gets really tiresome Flubber.

Phaneuf for Kovalchuk would have worked 2 years ago. Now, it won't. Yes, you are right that Phaneuf has a high upside, but look at it from the perspective of Atlanta. They want someone who's pretty much a sure thing

God damn.

They want someone who is a 'sure thing', so you postulated that they'd trade for Corey Schneider and Kevin Bieksa over Phaneuf, who was a Norris Trophy candidate at 22-years old?

what the ****.

I'm actually hoping you guys get Kovalchuk. He makes the Flames an unworkable mess cap-wise and all for a rental, who likely won't have anything to play for this year.

If they traded Phaneuf for Kovalchuk, the Flames would have more cap space available...

Again, what the ****.

I'm not saying it's likely, but it would be a feasible trade. Certainly far more than anything you've suggested.

[Asher]

By the way, according to Craig Custance at SportingNews, the Bruins and the Canucks are the teams who are trying very hard to land Kovalchuk. The Canucks would need to dump $6.5M in cap space to land him as a rental. Who would go?

Daryl Sutter has basically said he doesn't want Kovalchuk.

[Flubber]

I'd only be surprised if someone actually cared to understand but w/e. You know, this gets really tiresome Flubber.

.

Why -- I merely pointed out that ashers interpretation was reasonable. IF I was talking about Montreal and mentioned Markov I am sure you would assume Andrei on theor team and not Joseph Markov on their ECHL affiliate. Anyway this is beating a dead horse so I will move on.

Phaneuf for Kovalchuk would have worked 2 years ago. Now, it won't. .

Two years ago ?? No chance. They had Kovalchuk on contract for 2 more years so his value was WAY WAY higher--Phaneuf was probably headed for RFA status IIRC

They want someone who's pretty much a sure thing, or they gamble and go for someone who's got the high upshot, plus some speculative picks. Phaneuf is no longer a guarantee to be an effective offensive Dman, evidenced by falling in the depth chart in Calgary.
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Despite his defensive woes at times he would still be a top4 d-man on any team.AS for getting a "sure thing" plus picks, personally I think that asks too much . While Kovalchuk is pretty great, he would be a rental so the teams that want him are unlikley to want to give up anyone from their top 2 lines---

The interesting thing is that your offensive woes all can be put at the feet of Jokinen. There is a reason why he only played in the playoffs when he got to Calgary. I'm really waiting to see the light click on for y'all, but it makes me mildly amused that the kool-aid is still flowing.

Nope

Iggy , langkow, Boumeister, Phanuef are all struggling offensively so I don't see it all at the feet of jokkinen---But he has been a huge disappointment. There have been times when I would trade him for a bag of pucks. Then occassionally he has a super-imnvolved game where he hits and shoots lots and is a force all over the ice. You say "wow" but then end up grumbling when he doesn't do it again

[Flubber]

Daryl Sutter has basically said he doesn't want Kovalchuk.

That doesn't surprise me. Kovalchuk is reputed to be a bit of a floater at times. I don't think he would be a big hitter and even Jokinen will toss the body around sometime.


I do expect that Sutter will make some sort of impact deal this year -- largely because he has made them almost every year. He does tend to try to upgrade. Whether he succeeds-- well thats a definite question

But this year he has an almost embarrassing array of talented blueliners so hopefully he can parlay that into a playmaker up front

[Ben Kenobi]

Why -- I merely pointed out that ashers interpretation was reasonable. IF I was talking about Montreal and mentioned Markov I am sure you would assume Andrei on theor team and not Joseph Markov on their ECHL affiliate. Anyway this is beating a dead horse so I will move on.

Depends on the topic. If you were talking prospects, I'd presume you were referring to someone on the farm, not Andrei Markov. I'd probably go, Markov who? and then look him up and see that they do have a Markov on the farm. I assume my unfamiliarity is due to my mistake not yours.

Despite his defensive woes at times he would still be a top4 d-man on any team.AS for getting a "sure thing" plus picks, personally I think that asks too much . While Kovalchuk is pretty great, he would be a rental so the teams that want him are unlikley to want to give up anyone from their top 2 lines---

Erm, now I wish I had reworded it. 'Sure thing', OR a project plus spec pics. Right now he's an average quality number 2 d-man. Given that he's a first rounder I'd call him a project.

Iggy , langkow, Boumeister, Phanuef are all struggling offensively so I don't see it all at the feet of jokkinen---But he has been a huge disappointment. There have been times when I would trade him for a bag of pucks. Then occassionally he has a super-imnvolved game where he hits and shoots lots and is a force all over the ice. You say "wow" but then end up grumbling when he doesn't do it again

He's always played that way. He's got the talent to be so much better then he is, which is why it's disappointing that he lets it go to waste.

[Ben Kenobi]

They want someone who is a 'sure thing', so you postulated that they'd trade for Corey Schneider and Kevin Bieksa over Phaneuf, who was a Norris Trophy candidate at 22-years old?

That would fall under the high upshot projects + picks category. I believe Corey Schneider is a project who could have big upside.

[Ben Kenobi]

The Canucks would need to dump $6.5M in cap space to land him as a rental. Who would go?

Probably Bieksa, Demitra and Matt Schneider is my guess. That gets you to about 7 mill on the cap. Trade wise:

Bieksa, Hansen and Corey Schneider for Kovalchuk.

Demitra and Schneider cut.

[Asher]

Probably Bieksa, Demitra and Matt Schneider is my guess. That gets you to about 7 mill on the cap. Trade wise:

Are you suggesting that Vancouver is going to buy Demitra and Schneider out of their contacts? Even so, if they did that, they still count towards the cap in some way -- it's not eliminated. Even though your assertion is absurd (they won't be bought out with months left on their contract), it's not technically going to do much. That cap hit is going to stay there this year, period, unless they get traded. And they will NOT be traded.

Bieksa, Hansen and Corey Schneider for Kovalchuk.

So Atlanta will get an injured defenseman that is overpaid (3.75 mil cap hit) and only has 1 year left on his contract and a couple prospects? And you laughed at the Phaneuf for Kovalchuk trade? Do you know how absurd this is?

Nevermind that the Bieksa, Hansen, and Schneider trade for Kovalchuk will NOT be technically possible. You can't just snap your finger and remove the cap hits of Demitra and Schneider.

[notyoueither]

Demitra could be waived and would be off the cap, unless he has a no-move clause.

Schnieder is subject to the over 35 rule. He counts against the cap even in the event that he is kidnapped by Martians, unless someone else claims him on waivers, or he counts half if someone takes him off re-entry waivers.

You can only buy out contracts during a ~2 week period near the end of June or the beginning of July.

[Asher]

Demitra could be waived and would be off the cap, unless he has a no-move clause.

Schnieder is subject to the over 35 rule. He counts against the cap even in the event that he is kidnapped by Martians, unless someone else claims him on waivers, or he counts half if someone takes him off re-entry waivers.

You can only buy out contracts during a ~2 week period near the end of June or the beginning of July.

Demitra is 35 (born Nov 29, 1974). He's still not subject to the rule?

I forget if the rule is if the contract is signed when he's over 35 (in which case, it wouldn't apply here), if the rule is if the player is 35 or higher at the time (in which case, it will apply here), or if the rule is if the player is over 35 at the time (in which case, it wouldn't apply here).

[Ben Kenobi]

Are you suggesting that Vancouver is going to buy Demitra and Schneider out of their contacts? Even so, if they did that, they still count towards the cap in some way -- it's not eliminated.

They may, or Atlanta may buy out part of their contract. Atlanta may agree to pay out for Kovalchuk, and the cap hit wouldn't come until after the summer, when the Canucks would have to negotiate with Kovalchuk.

So Atlanta will get an injured defenseman that is overpaid (3.75 mil cap hit) and only has 1 year left on his contract and a couple prospects? And you laughed at the Phaneuf for Kovalchuk trade? Do you know how absurd this is?

Why absurd? They get a very good young goalie, they get a cheap young forward and they get a solid young D-man who costs half of what Phaneuf does, with better output. Much better deal than Phaneuf straight up.

[Asher]

They may, or Atlanta may buy out part of their contract.

Neither Vancouver nor Atlanta can buy him out til after the playoffs. So, it can't happen.

Why absurd? They get a very good young goalie

Schneider is the only good part of the deal. And he's not worth it.

they get a cheap young forward

A 9th rounder with 9 pts this year. That'll replace Kovalchuk real good, won't it.

and they get a solid young D-man who costs half of what Phaneuf does, with better output.

What league do you watch?

Bieksa: 28 years old, 119 pts in 266 games (0.45 ppg), -16
Phaneuf: 24 years old, 226 pts in 375 games (.60 ppg), +14

And Phaneuf has, undeniably, far higher potential.

[Ben Kenobi]

Two years ago is ancient history.

As for Hansen, he doesn't see much icetime on Vancouver, as he's behind Samuelsson and Burrows, and with Grabner coming up is expendable. Would love to see what he can do with proper ice time.

[Asher]

Two years ago is ancient history.

He's got more points this year, too. Including a PPG tonight so far.

In any case, you trade cannot possibly work -- even if it was reasonable, which it is not.

[notyoueither]

Demitra is 35 (born Nov 29, 1974). He's still not subject to the rule?

I forget if the rule is if the contract is signed when he's over 35 (in which case, it wouldn't apply here), if the rule is if the player is 35 or higher at the time (in which case, it will apply here), or if the rule is if the player is over 35 at the time (in which case, it wouldn't apply here).

It's age as of June 30 the year the contract takes effect (ie, last day of the prior NHL year; NHL year goes July 1 to June 30).

Demitra signed July 08.