AHL- Apolyton Hockey League 07/08: VII Da da da, da da daa, da da da, da daa da daa

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
He's been on the team for a long time now, and Calgary was stuck in the same rut until they got Kiprusoff. That to me says everything about Iginla. He's a solid player, but he's not the be-all and end-all of Calgary.

Bull****. You know nothing of the team, how the players treat Iginla, how Iginla treats this team. Where Iginla goes, this team goes with.

Linden, I'd agree with, and the Canucks until Keenan came to town were built around him. Linden is a better leader and a better player then Iginla, even if Iginla has more goals.

That's just bull****, sorry buddy.

Linden: 0.27 goals per game, career
Iginla: 0.44 goals per game, career

Linden: 0.62 points per game, career
Iginla: 0.88 points per game, career

Linden: -63 career
Iginla: +66 career

Iginla is passing Linden's career tallys at age 30...

Bure was about 10 times the player Iginla was

I think it's amazing how wrong you can be so consistently in hockey threads.

Good show, Ben, but I think you'll find no one here will come close to agreeing with anything you're saying here. This is because they exist in reality.

[Ben Kenobi]

Kiprusoff hasn't played "good" until recently, and they were a playoff team with him playing crap as well.

Yes, and their record has improved recently.

You yourself have been tracing Kipper's improvement and said that their turnaround is a result of him playing better.

Now, it's not convenient to make that argument so you change your mind again.

[Ben Kenobi]

Linden: 0.27 goals per game, career
Iginla: 0.44 goals per game, career

Call me when Iginla is 40...

Linden: -63 career
Iginla: +66 career

Playing for Vancouver from 1988 onwards will do that for you. He played through lots of bad years.

Iginla is passing Linden's career tallys at age 30...

If you knew anything about Linden, he put up most of those tallies by the time he was 30.

They are comparable. Iginla is a better goal scorer, but Linden is a better leader.

[Ben Kenobi]

I think it's amazing how wrong you can be so consistently in hockey threads.

Good show, Ben, but I think you'll find no one here will come close to agreeing with anything you're saying here. This is because they exist in reality.

Only three men have a higher goals per game ratio. Can you name them?

It's a pity his career was cut so short.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Yes, and their record has improved recently.

You yourself have been tracing Kipper's improvement and said that their turnaround is a result of him playing better.

Now, it's not convenient to make that argument so you change your mind again.

You're so bizarre. To put it nicely.

Yes, Kipper has been playing better.
No, the Flames record hasn't been noticably been improving, they've been a playoff team the majority of the year and continue to be.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Call me when Iginla is 40...

Will still be higher than Linden, considering he's already passing Linden's career totals. This is kind of basic math.

Playing for Vancouver from 1988 onwards will do that for you. He played through lots of bad years.

What a terrible leader he was, then -- right?
I suppose you think Calgary was a top team from 1996 - 2002?

Again, remarkable ignorance about hockey, Ben.

If you knew anything about Linden, he put up most of those tallies by the time he was 30.

Wow, that's unusual! Wait, so did Iginla! He just put up a lot more before he was 30. This kind of plays into my point of Iginla being a better player.

BTW, Linden is 37 -- not 40. Sundin is 37 too, isn't he? And he isn't a crap player like Linden (9 points this season! Christ that's useless).

They are comparable. Iginla is a better goal scorer, but Linden is a better leader.

Bull-****. Linden is such a great leader, he's not even Captain on one of the most soulless teams in the conference with arguably one of the worst captains in the whole of the NHL?

Iginla is the better player, period.

Iginla is better at:
- Scoring goals
- Scoring assists
- Playing defense
- Fighting
- Hitting
- Leading

Linden is better at:
- Dealing with Vancouver fans

Let's look at awards:

Linden's awards: None
Linden's all-star appearances: 2
Olympic gold medals: 0

Iginla awards:
Maurice "Rocket" Richard (Goals Leader) (TWICE)
Lester B. Person Award (Player of the Year selected by the NHLPA)
NHL - Art Ross Trophy (Leading Scorer)
All-star appearances: 6
Olympic gold medals: 1

This is horribly one sided, and Linden had 7 more frickin years in the league than Iginla.

Consider again what you said, with the above in mind:

Linden is a better leader and a better player then Iginla

[Asher]

Here's an article from earlier this season you may've missed. Incase you STILL miss it, Iginla's the one that took the team on his back and into the playoffs while Kiprusoff was still playing poorly: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/simp...es_out_of.html

While the overall play of his team was filled with the ups and downs of inconsistent play, Calgary captain Jarome Iginla has been anything but. The Flames’ all-time leader in games played and owner of a new five-year contract extension has been by far the best player on the ice for his team all year. Iginla is having the best year of his career offensively and on a nightly basis his play has been inspiring to fans and teammates alike.

Pivotal stretch

Iginla’s leadership and intensity on the ice may have, by itself, grabbed this troubled team from the brink of a disastrous season and brought them back into the race for the conference lead. An eight-day period from Dec. 9-16 may be remembered as the stretch the Flames roared back on track, and it was their captain who led the way.

With Calgary embarking on a season-long, six-game road trip and sitting two games below .500 and out of a playoff spot, the success or failure of this trip, could define the season.

While Iginla was unable to hit the scoresheet in the first game of the trip, his team gutted out a 3-2 win in Chicago to set the tone for the remaining games. With four games in four cities over the next six nights, Jarome Iginla took over.

Down 1-0 to Florida, Iginla scored with 10 seconds remaining to force overtime, and watched as his linemate Kristian Huselius scored the shootout winner. Two nights later in Tampa Bay, the Flames captain had a 4-point night in a wild 9-6 victory, scoring his sixth hat trick of his career, including the game winner. A night later, he scored again in a 4-3 win in Carolina. In their fourth game in six nights, Iginla was at his best. His two-goal, two-assist effort gave the Flames a five-game winning streak, and put them back into a playoff spot. In a four-game span on the road, Iginla had seven goals (two of them game winners) and three assists for 10 points, earning him player of the week honours in the NHL.

Great leaders are intuitive

Leadership can be displayed in many different ways. Great leaders seem to always know what is needed of them, when it is needed, how it needs to be done, and who they need to help them do it.

Jarome Iginla is a great leader, and his play this season has reminded us all just how much he has grown into that role. Whether his team needs a big goal, a big hit, a fight, a blocked shot, or an emotional boost, the Flames captain has been there.

Calgary has never had a Hart Trophy winner in their 28-year history, but Jarome Iginla should be their first. After 34 games he has only been held pointless seven times. He leads his team in goals, assists, points, power-play goals, game-winning goals, shots and faceoff winning percentage. He is second in NHL scoring and third in goals.

With all that he has done to this point in the season, his greatest accomplishment however may have been how he has guided his team through a difficult start, and carried them on his back through one of the toughest parts of their schedule.

He was also named Captain of the Western All-Star team, which says a lot about how the rest of the league views his leadership skills.

[Flubber]

Iggy as a leader??

I have mixed feelings. ON performance he is an exceptional leader-- he is the go-to guy in so many games and situations. he scores many timely goals and can spark a team with a hit a goal or a fight. I have seen him singlehandedly seem to carry the team on too many occasions to doubt his ability to perform on the ice as a leader.

My mixed feeling comes from the fact that it often HAS to be him and the Flames are now in pretty much year three of being a veteran team which frequently does not perform up to expectations. I don't know if thats Iggy or coaching or the fact that some Flames players just underachieve . .. But great leaders find a way to urge/get the utmost out of those around them. On that I have to give Iggy a not so great endorsement

[Ben Kenobi]

Will still be higher than Linden, considering he's already passing Linden's career totals. This is kind of basic math.

In goals yes. And people do tail off later in their career.

I'm saying that when all is said and done I don't believe there will be a significant difference in their goal scoring rates.

What a terrible leader he was, then -- right?
I suppose you think Calgary was a top team from 1996 - 2002?

They were better then Vancouver in 1988. Plus you have the fact that goal scoring dropped, for most of his career. He racked up huge minuses in his first few years.

Wow, that's unusual! Wait, so did Iginla! He just put up a lot more before he was 30. This kind of plays into my point of Iginla being a better player.

Let's try this again.

Linden has not had very many points in the last 5 seasons or so.

So a better comparison between the two would be to compare Linden at 30 to Iginla at 30. You are comparing apples and oranges.

BTW, Linden is 37 -- not 40. Sundin is 37 too, isn't he? And he isn't a crap player like Linden (9 points this season! Christ that's useless).

I knew I would get flak from people who don't know their history, like you. Oh, well. Linden has 1400 games already.

Call me when Iginla has 1400 games and we'll talk. Prolly take him until the age of 40 assuming he ever gets there.

Bull-****. Linden is such a great leader, he's not even Captain on one of the most soulless teams in the conference with arguably one of the worst captains in the whole of the NHL?

Good question.

Why don't you ask the man as to why that is the case. He was offered captaincy when he returned, and if Naslund ever left he would get it again.

He was only stripped of it by Iron Mike, who gave it to Messier before trading him away!

Iginla is better at:
- Scoring goals

There you go.

Yeah, he's such a good checker.

This is horribly one sided, and Linden had 7 more frickin years in the league than Iginla.

First off there were no Rocket Richard trophies when he started.

How many Art Rosses has Iginla won?

Iginla is a better goal scorer.

He is the best goal scorer in Flames history ranking above the amazing sniper of Theoren Fleury.

He's a tall man among midgets.

[Ben Kenobi]

Good luck with the game tonight.

Lames going down.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
In goals yes. And people do tail off later in their career.

I'm saying that when all is said and done I don't believe there will be a significant difference in their goal scoring rates.

Which makes no sense at all -- Iggy has already scored as many goals as Linden so anything after this is just gravy. What I'm saying is, why don't you do the basic math?

They were better then Vancouver in 1988.

Vancouver's points in Linden's first season: 74
Calgary's points in Iginla's first season: 73

Yeah, Ben, here we have another case of you talking out of your ass. The Flames and Canucks were both terrible when Linden and Iginla got their respective starts, yet Iginla is a career +66 and Linden is a career -63. That is no minor difference!

Plus you have the fact that goal scoring dropped, for most of his career. He racked up huge minuses in his first few years.

So Linden played (and scored most of his goals) during a time when goalscoring peaked and then fell, and somehow you're trying to tell me this means he's a better player than Iginla, who scores more when scoring is harder?

Let's try this again.

Linden has not had very many points in the last 5 seasons or so.

So a better comparison between the two would be to compare Linden at 30 to Iginla at 30. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Dude, Ben, no matter HOW you paint this picture, Iginla > Linden.

Iginla at age 30 (with more games to go yet in the season...):
48g 43a 91pts +26

Linden at age 30 (full season)
13g 24a 37pts -5

I knew I would get flak from people who don't know their history, like you. Oh, well. Linden has 1400 games already.

Call me when Iginla has 1400 games and we'll talk. Prolly take him until the age of 40 assuming he ever gets there.

What...the...****?

You were the one who said Linden was 40. He's 37. And you tell me I don't know my history?

You tell me Linden's the better player, when history (and the present) shows that Linden's not even close to being in the same stratosphere as Iginla.

Iginla has 854 NHL games at age 30. Linden has 1375 at age 37. I'd say it's quite obvious Iginla is on pace to have comparable numbers in terms of GP, and since Iginla has already met Linden's point totals at age 30, he'd have to score 0 points in the next 7 years for any of your predictions to become true (eg, his points/game number will fall to match Linden's).

Good question.

Why don't you ask the man as to why that is the case. He was offered captaincy when he returned, and if Naslund ever left he would get it again.

He was only stripped of it by Iron Mike, who gave it to Messier before trading him away!

Messier is the superior captain, no question about it.

There you go.

Yeah, he's such a good checker.

Iginla? Actually, yeah -- yeah he is. He's a very physical player.

Linden had all of 35 hits when he was 31 (earliest they tracked this).
Iginla has 91 hits so far this season, the season's not even over yet.

First off there were no Rocket Richard trophies when he started.

He wouldn't have come even CLOSE to ever getting one, if you knew your history.

How many Art Rosses has Iginla won?

Is this a joke? He's won one, which is infinitely more than Linden has ever won -- he's never come CLOSE. Linden's never even scored at a point-a-game pace for one single season.

Iginla is a better goal scorer.

He's better across the board. Tell me one thing Linden was better at -- something quantifiable. Every single stat across the board is insanely slanted towards Iginla.

Ben, buddy, I'm embarrassed for you. Please don't ever change.

[Asher]

Also:

Iginla is a better goal scorer.

He is the best goal scorer in Flames history ranking above the amazing sniper of Theoren Fleury.

He's a tall man among midgets.

Fleury had over 100 more goals in ~300 less games than Linden.

Both Iginla and Fleury would hold the Canucks records for goals and points, so I'm not sure where your barb comes from?

[Ben Kenobi]

Which makes no sense at all -- Iggy has already scored as many goals as Linden so anything after this is just gravy. What I'm saying is, why don't you do the basic math?

You weren't comparing total goals.

You were comparing the ratios, at their greatest separation, when Iggy is at his peak, and Linden is close to retiring.

All I'm saying is that Iggy at 40 will have a much lower ratio then now, and they will be more comparable.

Yeah, Ben, here we have another case of you talking out of your ass. The Flames and Canucks were both terrible when Linden and Iginla got their respective starts, yet Iginla is a career +66 and Linden is a career -63. That is no minor difference!

Plus you have the fact that goal scoring dropped, for most of his career. He racked up huge minuses in his first few years.

1988-1989 Canucks -10
1989-1990 Canucks -17
1990-1991 Canucks -25

That puts him at -52 after his first three years.

He's -11 for the remainder of his career.

Basically, he's an even player who started off in a big hole.

So a better comparison between the two would be to compare Linden at 30 to Iginla at 30. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Linden at age 30 (full season)
13g 24a 37pts -5

I'm not sure where you are getting those statistics. That doesn't match ANY of his seasons.

I can pull out stats out of my ass too.

If you want real stats, here's Linden in his 8th season, his last full one before he got injured the following year.

82 games, 33 goals 47 assists 80 points.

That's not too shabby, and is more representative then the seasons after his injury.

You were the one who said Linden was 40. He's 37. And you tell me I don't know my history?

I said, specifically, to call me when Iginla was 40. That was based on the difference in games. Linden has way more miles on him.

Iginla has 854 NHL games at age 30. Linden has 1375 at age 37.

Linden had 1000 games by age 30, and 620 by the time he was 26, and that includes a half season.

I'd say it's quite obvious Iginla is on pace to have comparable numbers in terms of GP,

Doubtful. Despite the fact that Linden hasn't played a full season since he was 26, he still has 1400 games in. Iginla started later and hasn't played as often. He's a full 2 seasons behind Linden already.

Iginla? Actually, yeah -- yeah he is. He's a very physical player.

And Linden isn't?

880 PIMs already. He routinely got 80-100 every season in his peak.

Linden had all of 35 hits when he was 31 (earliest they tracked this).

Yeah, that's really an effective argument Asher.

He wouldn't have come even CLOSE to ever getting one, if you knew your history.

He scored 35, and he was never the primary scorer on the team. That's what Bure was for.

Iginla has no one else.

Is this a joke? He's won one, which is infinitely more than Linden has ever won -- he's never come CLOSE. Linden's never even scored at a point-a-game pace for one single season.

True, his best season was 1995,

82 33 47 80.

Maybe you should mention that he scored only 0.975 points per game in his best season.

He has 3 other seasons of over 70 points, where his ratio was over 0.8.

Jerome Iginla, has done it twice.

70 39 55 94 40

82 52 44 96 77

He's had the same number of seasons with over 70 points.

Jerome Iginla won the Art Ross with 96 points, which was the lowest year since Mikita in 1967.

Compare that to Gretzky and Mario, it just doesn't mean the same.

He's better across the board. Tell me one thing Linden was better at -- something quantifiable. Every single stat across the board is insanely slanted towards Iginla.

Better? Leadership.

They are about the same on checking and physical play and assists. Iginla, as the only scoring threat is a better goal scorer then Linden.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
You weren't comparing total goals.

You were comparing the ratios, at their greatest separation, when Iggy is at his peak, and Linden is close to retiring.

All I'm saying is that Iggy at 40 will have a much lower ratio then now, and they will be more comparable.

Yes, it will obviously be lower when he's 40, but no, it won't be comparable for obvious reasons already repeatedly outlined for you..

I'm not sure where you are getting those statistics. That doesn't match ANY of his seasons.

I can pull out stats out of my ass too.

If you want real stats, here's Linden in his 8th season, his last full one before he got injured the following year.

The hell, Ben, the hell...

I was looking at 2001-2002. All the stats sites have the same numbers.
80 games played, 13 goals, 24 assists, 37 points, -5

Want 00-01?
69 games played, 15 goals, 22 assists, 37 points, EV

These are the "age 30" seasons that you requested I compare to Iginla at age 30 now.

That's not too shabby, and is more representative then the seasons after his injury.

That was a career year for him, so it is -- by definition -- not more representative of most of his play. At his peak he didn't even get a point per game. That's not Iginla-territory, Ben.

I said, specifically, to call me when Iginla was 40. That was based on the difference in games. Linden has way more miles on him.

Which doesn't make a damn bit a difference when talking about how great the player was. Even in much less games, Iginla has comparable point totals. This means he is a better player, period.

Linden had 1000 games by age 30, and 620 by the time he was 26, and that includes a half season.

Yes, Linden started in the NHL much earlier than Iginla. A "head start", if you will. Despite this, Iginla has the same points at 30 (10 NHL seasons) than Linden does at 37 (18 NHL seasons). Can you figure out the implication of this?

Now let's throw out your fuzzy math.
Game totals per season for Linden:
88: 80
89: 73
90: 80
91: 80
92: 84
93: 84
94: 48
95: 82
96: 49
97: 67
98: 82
99: 50
00: 69
--------
928 at age 30

Iginla has 854 (+6 remaining = 860) at age 30.
Basically, the 1 year earlier Linden started makes up the difference here, and it's not large. You overstate your point.

Doubtful. Despite the fact that Linden hasn't played a full season since he was 26, he still has 1400 games in. Iginla started later and hasn't played as often. He's a full 2 seasons behind Linden already.

928 - 860 = 68
82 games in a season
So how do you get "full 2 seasons behind"?

And Linden isn't?

880 PIMs already. He routinely got 80-100 every season in his peak.

No, he's not nearly as physical as Iginla. Look at the hits statistic, Linden is always a fraction of Iginla's. Penalty minutes do not mean they're physical players...

Yeah, that's really an effective argument Asher.

You're asserting which player is more physical...
I use the metric which counts, well, physical hits.
You use penalty minutes, which counts game misconducts, hooking, diving, high sticking, etc.

Yeah, it's my argument that's wonky here.

He scored 35

And thus, nowhere near to the title. Thanks for clearing that up.

Iginla has no one else.

Which is actually why his point total is more impressive than Linden's? Lindens were actually inflated because he played with a phenomenal player like Bure. Look at his numbers once he didn't have a guaranteed point generator.

Maybe you should mention that he scored only 0.975 points per game in his best season.

I have several times.

He has 3 other seasons of over 70 points, where his ratio was over 0.8.

Jerome Iginla, has done it twice.

70 39 55 94 40

82 52 44 96 77

He's had the same number of seasons with over 70 points.

Where do you get this 70 point divider from? In any case, for Iginla I see 5 where he got 70+ points, and 7 if you draw your arbitrary line at 67 points...

07-08: 91 pts in 76 games
06-07: 94 pts in 70 games
(05-06: 67 pts in 82 games)
03-04: 73 pts in 81 games
(02-03: 67 pts in 75 games)
01-02: 96 points in 82 games
00-01: 71 points in 77 games

Jerome Iginla won the Art Ross with 96 points, which was the lowest year since Mikita in 1967.

It's Jarome, not Jerome, and this just tells you how hard it was to score that year. Why do you think they changed up the rules, Ben?

Compare that to Gretzky and Mario, it just doesn't mean the same.

How about I compare it to Linden...oh wait, that's what I've been schooling you on?

Better? Leadership.

I said quantifiable. I don't see Linden as a great leader, seeing as he's a vacuum on the Canucks this year (with or without the C) and he's never really done much with his career beside suck up air in Vancouver.

They are about the same on checking and physical play and assists.

As demonstrated, Iginla is much better at checking and much better defensively (+/-)

Iginla, as the only scoring threat is a better goal scorer then Linden.

Ben. Categorically, Linden is worse than Iginla. Sorry. Even when you fake your numbers, as here, you lose.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, it will obviously be lower when he's 40, but no, it won't be comparable for obvious reasons already repeatedly outlined for you..

Do you really want me to compare the Linden after the same number of games as Iginla now?

I can do that, that way you are looking at pure goal scoring.

I was looking at 2001-2002. All the stats sites have the same numbers.

When he played for Washington and got traded to Vancouver?

He only got 1 goal in 16 games out in Washington. That would be like Iginla getting traded to Vancouver and playing on our checking line.

He was born 1970 dude. He was 32 when you quoted these stats.

These are the "age 30" seasons that you requested I compare to Iginla at age 30 now.

He was also traded and bounced around teams for awhile.

That was a career year for him, so it is -- by definition -- not more representative of most of his play. At his peak he didn't even get a point per game. That's not Iginla-territory, Ben.

He got more then 80 points once and 70 points 3 other times. No, he didn't score as many goals as Iginla, but neither was he the number one scoring threat either, not when the canucks had Pavel.

Someone has to score the goals on Calgary.

Which doesn't make a damn bit a difference when talking about how great the player was. Even in much less games, Iginla has comparable point totals. This means he is a better player, period.

At their peaks they are similar players.

Yes, Linden started in the NHL much earlier than Iginla. A "head start", if you will. Despite this, Iginla has the same points at 30 (10 NHL seasons) than Linden does at 37 (18 NHL seasons). Can you figure out the implication of this?

Yes, Linden got injured after 8 seasons in and never played to the same level.

I would say the same if Iginla got injured, say this game and trailed off.

If he has another 10 productive seasons, then the case would be moot, but right now they are comparable.

As for throwing out my fuzzy math he was born in April, dude. I include the season he turned 30, which is 2000-1, which works out to be 799 games.

Iginla has 854 (+6 remaining = 860) at age 30.
Basically, the 1 year earlier Linden started makes up the difference here, and it's not large. You overstate your point.

And you miss mine. I'm giving Iginla his extra year, Linden gets the same.

880 PIMs already. He routinely got 80-100 every season in his peak.

No, he's not nearly as physical as Iginla. Look at the hits statistic, Linden is always a fraction of Iginla's.

Which is a garbage statistic, because it doesn't include Linden's best years.

PIM is something we have both of and players who score 80 points and 100 PIM are generally considered to be quintessional power forwards.

You're asserting which player is more physical...
I use the metric which counts, well, physical hits.

You are using a statistic which doesn't even exist for another player. That's the same as me saying that Gordie Howe is less physical then Iginla because the hits statistic didn't exist then.

You use penalty minutes, which counts game misconducts, hooking, diving, high sticking, etc.

If you have a better statistic to assess this, then go right ahead. Hits is garbage because it wasn't recorded in Linden's best years.

And thus, nowhere near to the title. Thanks for clearing that up.

When Gretzky and Mario are scoring more assists then Iginla gets points.

Which is actually why his point total is more impressive than Linden's? Lindens were actually inflated because he played with a phenomenal player like Bure.

Oh, he plays what position, Asher?

What position does Bure play?

Bure's Centreman was Ronning and his winger was Courtnall.

Look at his numbers once he didn't have a guaranteed point generator.

You are so full of **** Asher, this is a hoot.

And you say I have no hockey knowledge?

Where do you get this 70 point divider from?

I don't count the current season. It's not finished yet.

It's Jarome, not Jerome, and this just tells you how hard it was to score that year. Why do you think they changed up the rules, Ben?

Yes, and you get a Gretzky and Mario every year.

I said quantifiable. I don't see Linden as a great leader, seeing as he's a vacuum on the Canucks this year (with or without the C) and he's never really done much with his career beside suck up air in Vancouver.

He was offered the C and turned it down because he wanted to do what he felt was right, and should have happened to him back in 1995 when the Canucks got Messier.

As demonstrated, Iginla is much better at checking and much better defensively (+/-)

He plays on a far more defensive team then the Vancouver Canucks.

As for faking, I've not faked any numbers here.