MLB - 2007 Season

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
What, you think they've decided to protect Ripken? That they just went after Bonds cause they didn't like him?

As Arrian pointed out, if you are an ass to the media, they are going to try to bring you down. It's not all that shocking of a statement. Arrian brought up Giambi (who hardly anyone cares about anymore), but what about A-Rod? Hits a faster 500 HRs than anyone other than Jimmy Foxx, and has been hinted, by none other than Jose Canseco, to have used some PEDs, but those stories get little traction. Sure the NY media goes after him for "not being a true Yankee" and whatever that means, but the steroid thing is a far more serious allegation and he's sheltered from it.

[Arrian]

ARod's not a good example, because the media has happily savaged him. Just not about steroids - but rather about his chokitude (real or supposed).

The Canseco thing hasn't taken off largely because, despite being more right than anyone wants to admit, most people still think Jose is basically a scumbag who throws out allegations so he can profit.

I don't think the media is protecting ARod. I'll grant you it's possible, though.

I've also seen lots of references in articles about Albert Pujols that claim he's clearly clean (oh how nice it is to see him play, knowing he's clean, etc etc). No idea why he's above scrutiny...

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

A-Rod's been savaged for far less serious things, however. And mostly just by the NY media. The rest of the country really lays off (really, I never heard about the A-Rod cheats on his wife stuff until it was pointed out to me online on another message board).

[-Jrabbit]

Some of the game's best pitchers routinely used the spitball. Most of the .400 hitters played in the "dead ball" era. Many hallowed records were set before the game was integrated.

My point is: There's no reason to put an asterisk on the Steroid Era. There is no asterisk on the Pre-Negro Era, the Dead Ball Era, the Amphetamine Era, the Spitball Era, the WWII Years, the High Pitching Mound Age, the Aerodynamically Enhanced Bat Period or any other.

There are no asterisks in the record books. The records are the records. Historians and fans are well aware of the changing conditions over the years. It's a rich tapestry, some of it laughable, some of it shameful. But virtually no part of modern baseball history can be said to be "pure."

Some differences have been physical in nature, some behavioral, some chemical, some social. I hate the fact that steroids and HGH have eliminated some of the "apples to apples" comparisons across years. Yes, I feel some outrage and moral indignation. But it happened. It was part of the game for a decade or two. Now it won't be. Much like institutionalized racism, it had its place, it was outlawed, and now it's gone.

The game goes on.

[lord of the mark]

Ripken is loved, tis true.

BUT Ripken was attacked in Baltimore FOR keeping the streak going, it was suggested his hitting would have improved with time off, and that he was sacrificing the team for the streak. I seem to recall not everyone loving him so much.

And yet not a peep about him using PEDs, that I know of.

Look, I know any athlete could be using PEDs. George Bush could be a closet Islamist. Any one of the folks who disagrees with me about Israel could be a cryptoNazi. Any person any of us is in a serious relationship with could be an adulteror.

But we dont normally use language that way. As widespread as adultery is, as widespread as bigotry of all kinds is, we give a certain benefit of the doubt to folks whove never been accused, which we dont give to folks who HAVE been accused, unless the accusation was obviously baseless.

Im still missing something here.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
Some of the game's best pitchers routinely used the spitball. Most of the .400 hitters played in the "dead ball" era. Many hallowed records were set before the game was integrated.

I dont see the comparison. Did Babe Ruth secretly avoid black pitchers, while other hitters at the time did hit against them? Non-comparability cause the game changed isnt the same as cheating.

The spitball thing is more comparable.

Id be tempted to say a spitball cheaters record should be asterisked too (at least mentally). But Im not that worried about kids learning to use spitballs. I dont think kids should learn to be cheaters, no. But steroids are a problem beyond cheating. Theyre a health problem for youngsters. When an athlete uses them theres the cheating, but there are also other consequences.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
Some differences have been physical in nature, some behavioral, some chemical, some social. I hate the fact that steroids and HGH have eliminated some of the "apples to apples" comparisons across years. Yes, I feel some outrage and moral indignation. But it happened. It was part of the game for a decade or two. Now it won't be. Much like institutionalized racism, it had its place, it was outlawed, and now it's gone.

Aside from the fact there are no "apples to apples" comparisons at all . That's why we have stats like OPS+ and ERA+, Win Shares, DIPS, etc. They normalize the stats for era and park factors to truly determine the value of players.

[q=LOTM]BUT Ripken was attacked in Baltimore FOR keeping the streak going, it was suggested his hitting would have improved with time off, and that he was sacrificing the team for the streak. I seem to recall not everyone loving him so much.

And yet not a peep about him using PEDs, that I know of. [/q]

Hardly a peep about steroids during the McGwire/Sosa run for 61. There was a minor story about andro, but that was legal and the story fizzled out. No one really mentioned anabolic steroids... until well after the fact.

Considering that Ripken was playing in an era loaded with amphetamines, it's difficult to imagine he was completely off of them while playing in that many consecutive games (it's somewhat similar to how can Lance Armstrong be clean when all the people he was beating be all drugged up?).

And it isn't about the fans loving a player, but whether he is nice to the media so that the media likes him as a person.

[Apocalypse]

Lance has many stalkers, he would have been caught already.

[Imran Siddiqui]

WOW.... I'm happy as Hell for the guy:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270809124

ST. LOUIS (AP) -- In spring training 2005, Rick Ankiel launched his new career as a 26-year-old minor-league outfielder. In his first game back in the major leagues, he launched one out of the ballpark.

Ankiel's three-run homer capped a storybook return and Joel Pineiro worked seven scoreless innings in the St. Louis Cardinals' 5-0 victory over the San Diego Padres on Thursday night.

"Unbelievable," Ankiel said. "You almost can't put that into words."

The day began with utilityman Scott Spiezio going on the restricted list for a substance problem that the Cardinals did not specify, allowing for the callup of Ankiel to take his spot on the roster.

Ankiel, who led the Pacific Coast League with 32 homers for Triple-A Memphis, launched a 2-1 curveball from Doug Brocail over the right-field wall in the seventh with an effortless swing that put the Cardinals ahead 5-0.

"I pitched the report," Brocail said. "I have no idea how he hit that ball. It's good to see the kid back, though.

"You know, he wasn't too bad of a pitcher," Brocail added.

The drive merited a standing ovation and a curtain call for the once-troubled left-hander, who walked away from a pitching career in frustration more than two years ago. Manager Tony La Russa was misty-eyed at his postgame news conference and compared Ankiel's return with Adam Wainwright striking out the Tigers' Brandon Inge for the final out in the World Series.

"Short of winning the World Series, it's the happiest I've seen our club," La Russa said. "I'm fighting my butt off to keep it together.

"Next to striking out Inge, that's the happiest I've been in this uniform," he said.

Even the Padres were impressed with Ankiel's conversion.

"I guess Babe Ruth was the last," said manager Bud Black, referring to pitchers converting into power-hitting outfielders. "It's quite a show of athleticism and quite a show of being a baseball player.

"It's a great story," he said.

The homer was the third of Ankiel's career and the first since April 26, 2000, off Steve Woodard of the Brewers.

Way to go Rick. Hope you find a lot of success as an OF!

[snoopy369]

Ankiel Good luck sir even if you are a Cardinal!

Way to go to the Cards also for sticking it out with this guy ... i'm sure it would've been much easier to just part ways with him after he lost his accuracy, but they stuck with him, and he stuck with it

[Imran Siddiqui]

[Arrian]

That is ****ing awesome. WTG, Rick Ankiel. Hopefully you're not on 'roids.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

But steroids are a problem beyond cheating. Theyre a health problem for youngsters. When an athlete uses them theres the cheating, but there are also other consequences.

Fair point. And with MLB's testing program and harsh penalties (at least in comparison to certain other leagues), hopefully the "steroid era" is coming to a close. Obviously, there is always concern over things they don't have reliable tests for yet, but the problem has been brought out into the open now. Notice has been served that the sport will no longer look the other way.

Incidently, just as worrisome as the steroids thing is the new trend of youngsters seeking pro-active "Tommy John" surgery (i.e. before they actually need it - maybe they'd never need it). Many of the guys who have successfully rehabbed from TJ surgery gained velocity on their pitches, and this has not gone unnoticed. There have been some disturbing articles about it.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

[q=LOTM]BUT Ripken was attacked in Baltimore FOR keeping the streak going, it was suggested his hitting would have improved with time off, and that he was sacrificing the team for the streak. I seem to recall not everyone loving him so much.

And yet not a peep about him using PEDs, that I know of. [/q]

Hardly a peep about steroids during the McGwire/Sosa run for 61. There was a minor story about andro, but that was legal and the story fizzled out. No one really mentioned anabolic steroids... until well after the fact.

Considering that Ripken was playing in an era loaded with amphetamines, it's difficult to imagine he was completely off of them while playing in that many consecutive games (it's somewhat similar to how can Lance Armstrong be clean when all the people he was beating be all drugged up?).

And it isn't about the fans loving a player, but whether he is nice to the media so that the media likes him as a person.

1. re not peep during the McGwire-Sosa run. That happened in one season. Theres been a lot more time for folks to dig dirt on Rip.

2. It was a Balt Sun sportswriter who attacked Cal for keeping the streak going, IIRC. Journos themselvs, though they certainly liked (and like) Cal, never put him above criticism. Im dubious, if there were real reason to think he was implicated in steroids, that every last one of them would have kept the secret.

[Arrian]

There is a valid criticism of Ripken's streak: that in not taking any days off he was actually hurting his performance and thereby hurting the team in pursuit of an individual accomplishment. I see some merit to that critique.

That's very different than alleging a player is a dirty cheater, though.

Bear in mind that, for many many years, players taking "greenies" (amphetamines) wasn't really considered cheating. Ultimately, it's kinda like drinking a ****load of coffee (the replacement nowadays is apparently cappachinos).

Look, I think Ripken was clean (at least wrt steroids), ok? Happy?

-Arrian