Fantasy Hockey - Coming up on the Halfway Point

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
He specifcally mentioned discussion of mental capabilities. I'd be careful about comments regarding comprehension, but then again I assume certain posters from Calgary have received simliar PMs so I would have no new information for them.

My PMs from Ming are about responding to your personal attacks.

It is fair game to discuss somebody's comprehension of what is being discussed. Unless we're all talking about the same thing, it's useless to talk at all.

Your comprehension of the argument used does not constitute your mental capability. Or, it shouldn't...

The fact that you've ignored the actual argument for this ridiculous tirade about personal articles tells the story about the strength of your argument, anyway.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Asher

This is precisely my point.

Look at the team numbers in 97-98 and 02-03. Iginla was significantly above the team average in both years in +/-. As I said, +/- is best used to compare a player within the confines of a team, relative to the others.

Iginla proved himself to be an elite player, even when the team was minus. Good players will find a way to be above average +/- on a team, and that's the end of it. Then again, my idea of a "good" player is one who is well-rounded: has offense and defensive capabilities. Others here think it's only about offense.

Iginla was 25th on the team in 02-03. Try again.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Asher

My PMs from Ming are about responding to your personal attacks.

It is fair game to discuss somebody's comprehension of what is being discussed. Unless we're all talking about the same thing, it's useless to talk at all.

Your comprehension of the argument used does not constitute your mental capability. Or, it shouldn't...

Can I mention your use of non-existant stats where Iginla is a team leader?

[notyoueither]

I think this is the point where Jaguar would post something about pwnage.

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Iginla was 25th on the team in 02-03. Try again.

Yes, this is true. While the average on the team was -5, Iginla was a -10. If you look at his other stats, that was one of his worst years ever. He wasn't great that year at all.

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I think this is the point where Jaguar would post something about pwnage.

Yes, you have clearly pwned me such that it is clear to everyone that:

1) Iginla is a bad player with no leadership skills
2) +/- is useless on the basis that Iginla was twice a minus player (barely) in his career
3) The Oilers are clearly a rebuilding team.

Nice work.

Does anyone else here want to discuss how awesome Pitkanen is this year without watching him at all and disregarding his stats, like nye does? I must say, it's an interesting way to evaluate players.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Hey! How about Phoenix?

Joseph is playing amazing but I still don't see Phoenix as keeping this up . Almost every team will have a hot streak sometime

Think about it.... after this amazing run, they are stll SEVEN points out. If they go 7-2-1 in the NEXT 10 they still probably would be 3-4 points out.

I cannot see them continuing to win at this rate. Ten games from now, I would see them still being 7 points or more out of a playoff spot

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Asher

Look at the team numbers in 97-98 and 02-03. Iginla was significantly above the team average in both years in +/-.

Originally posted by Asher

Yes, this is true. While the average on the team was -5, Iginla was a -10. If you look at his other stats, that was one of his worst years ever. He wasn't great that year at all.

Which is it?

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Can I mention your use of non-existant stats where Iginla is a team leader?

On hockey teams, some jerseys have a "C" on him. This "C" stands for "Captain".

Jarome Iginla wears a "C" on his jersey for the Calgary Flames. This means he is a "Captain" of the team. The purpose of the "Captain" of a team is to provide team leadership. Thus, Jarome Iginla is a "team leader".

"pwn3d" indeed.

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Which is it?

My memory of the entire team's +/- stats 4-5 years was off by a few digits. Quick, let's avoid every other topic of contention and focus on a useless minor point and flog it to death and hope no one notices you're, again, cherrypicking from years of history on a player who had an off year.

You are saying Pitkanen's +/- being so dreadful has no impact on how good he is being this year. Apparently the way the team plays is out of his hands. That's your position, do you want to actually defend it or not? Because all you're doing now is pretending you're a Philosophy instructor and getting lost in stupid, minor stuff while ignoring anything of importance.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Flubber


Joseph is playing amazing but I still don't see Phoenix as keeping this up . Almost every team will have a hot streak sometime

Think about it.... after this amazing run, they are stll SEVEN points out. If they go 7-2-1 in the NEXT 10 they still probably would be 3-4 points out.

I cannot see them continuing to win at this rate. Ten games from now, I would see them still being 7 points or more out of a playoff spot

They are 4 points behind Colorado for the last spot based on all teams playing 41 games.

While I agree they have been hot, they are going in the right direction. Some other teams are not so much.

[notyoueither]

And after today they are 5 back of Minny with a game in hand.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Asher

My memory of the entire team's +/- stats 4-5 years was off by a few digits. Quick, let's avoid every other topic of contention and focus on a useless minor point and flog it to death and hope no one notices you're, again, cherrypicking from years of history on a player who had an off year.

You are saying Pitkanen's +/- being so dreadful has no impact on how good he is being this year. Apparently the way the team plays is out of his hands. That's your position, do you want to actually defend it or not? Because all you're doing now is pretending you're a Philosophy instructor and getting lost in stupid, minor stuff while ignoring anything of importance.

Your statement sounded so definite. In fact, I'd swear you stated as a fact something that was far from accurate. This is not the first time. This is not even the first time in a seven day period. How many other statements of fact do not bear up under examination? How valuable are the stated opinions that these 'facts' form the basis of?

And yes, when a player goes from -2 to +27 to -10 to +21 over four seasons, that is a good indication of the value of the +/- stat when considering the value of a player. That would be my point.

But keep a sharp eye out on that stat. It moves a lot so it might be important... someday... somewhere.

[notyoueither]

Now, other than a fixation on +/-, what does the hockey world have to say about young Joni?

Assets Has tremendous size and strength for the blueline position. Oozes offensive potential and displays plenty of grit, toughness and character.

Flaws Will need to play up to expectations in a tough sports city (Philadelphia), which could be an intimidating factor throughout his career.

Career potential No. 1 defenseman.

Hmmm. I fail to see how Edmonton would be an easier place for him to live up to expectations. More like 'we' eat our young.

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Your statement sounded so definite.

This is not academia, we mustn't footnote everything we write.

And yes, when a player goes from -2 to +27 to -10 to +21 over four seasons, that is a good indication of the value of the +/- stat when considering the value of a player. That would be my point.

But your point is ignoring my contention altogether, which is that the number must be looked at relative to the team he's on. It is particularly useful for defensemen.

But keep a sharp eye out on that stat. It moves a lot so it might be important... someday... somewhere.

Let's think about this a bit deeper.

What does +/- tell us? It tells us that when that player was on the ice, they either were "plus" (or their team scored more goals than were scored against), "even", or "minus".

So a player who is at the bottom of a team's +/- listing means they've been on the ice for more goals against than goals scored, way more than other people on the team.

In this case, you do take into account TOI as well. A player like Pitkanen who is on the ice for 25 minutes a game, will have more exaggerated +/- compared to most others.

So you look at other stats. Go figure, Pitkanen is #1 in Philly in giveaways. He's made only 16 hits all season. He hasn't scored a single goal all season.

Suddenly his poor +/- looks a lot more reasonable than waving your hands and dismissing it as nothing.