Pro-Life Activist Gunned Down in Michigan

[Lorizael]

Stop making the thread personal. Get back on topic.

[Elok]

It is intrinsically Christian. That's the whole point, Elok. The gunman admitted that he shot Jim not simply because he was there, but because he was prolife, and because he was annoyed at him preaching the gospel to other people.

And, no, he's not a martyr in the political sense. I know you have martyrs in the Orthodox church, so what is so hard to accept that a man who was killed while proclaiming that all of mankind is in the image of God, and this includes the tiny babies inside their mother's womb. He is a martyr the same way St. Peter and Paul were martyrs, killed for their faith.

Now, I have a question for you, elok. What do you consider 'intrinsically Christian'?

It is not intrinsically Christian because it is entirely possible to be a pro-life Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Jew, Buddhist, Confucian ancestor-worshiper, Shinto, pagan, new-age pseudopagan, agnostic or atheist. I heartily dislike the perverse and self-defeating tendency of the pro-life community to make itself equal to and inseparable from Christianity. Many, if not most, Christians, believe in the right of the unborn to life, but many other self-proclaimed Christians (I'm not getting into a debate about whether they are Christians here) do not/believe the mother's right to self-determination supersedes it, and many who are not Christians are pro-life as well.

Let me put it this way: Christianity is generally disapproving of mugging (as in, robbery on the street aided by force or threat of force). It's far more unambiguous than even the pro-life position. However, pretty much everyone else agrees, regardless of religion, that people who hit other people with blackjacks and steal their wallets should be punished. Therefore, if I am standing outside the local police station demanding that a rash of local muggings be stopped, and somebody--who thinks he has the right to take whatever he damn well pleases by force--drives by and shoots me dead, I am not eligible for martyrdom. I did not lay down my life for the Christian religion, I was suddenly killed for opposing a particular activity which is verboten to Christians (as well as many other groups).

[Ben Kenobi]

It is not intrinsically Christian because it is entirely possible to be a pro-life Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Jew, Buddhist, Confucian ancestor-worshiper, Shinto, pagan, new-age pseudopagan, agnostic or atheist.

So then the only 'intrinsic Christian belief' would be that Christ was Lord, and our God and saviour. This means things like 'love your neighbour' are not intrinsically Christian?

No, I don't think that's the right assessment. I think things can be understood by non-Christians, and even followed by them, even if they are intrinsically Christian beliefs. Romans 3 writes how when those who are without the law follow the law in their hearts, they are considered a law unto themselves. Point being, non-Christians can hold intrinsic Christian beliefs.

I heartily dislike the perverse and self-defeating tendency of the pro-life community to make itself equal to and inseparable from Christianity.

I was prolife before I was a Christian. I would consider your argument, that Christianity does not have the intrinsic believe that unborn children are persons, and ought to be protected, to be a stumbling block.

Many, if not most, Christians, believe in the right of the unborn to life, but many other self-proclaimed Christians (I'm not getting into a debate about whether they are Christians here) do not/believe the mother's right to self-determination supersedes it, and many who are not Christians are pro-life as well.

To me, Christ is very clear on that. He says many will call me 'Lord, Lord", and yet to Christ, he will say, I never knew you. Again, he says, good tree, good fruit, bad tree bad fruit. Judge them by their fruits. Just because some people choose not to follow Christ, doesn't change what he taught.

Let me put it this way: Christianity is generally disapproving of mugging (as in, robbery on the street aided by force or threat of force). It's far more unambiguous than even the pro-life position. However, pretty much everyone else agrees, regardless of religion, that people who hit other people with blackjacks and steal their wallets should be punished.

CS Lewis' conclusion to this phenomenon was to postulate the existance of what he called the Tao, or a universal moral code. The thing about Christians is not that they are the only ones who possess it, but rather they possess the fullness of the code. This is how people who are not Christians can still exhibit what we would call 'moral behaviour', even though they lack full understanding.

Therefore, if I am standing outside the local police station demanding that a rash of local muggings be stopped, and somebody--who thinks he has the right to take whatever he damn well pleases by force--drives by and shoots me dead, I am not eligible for martyrdom. I did not lay down my life for the Christian religion, I was suddenly killed for opposing a particular activity which is verboten to Christians (as well as many other groups).

I'm seeing the scene of the crime elok, the shots were directly through his sign which is riddled with holes. The killer already admitted that he shot James because of his prolife witness. Had a street preacher been preaching out against theft or muggings, and was executed in a drive-by by the thugs he condemned, he would be a martyr, no less than John the Baptist who was executed for preaching against Herod's adultery.

[Lorizael]

rah, Asher, BK: This thread is about a pro-life activist being gunned down. Stay on topic, stop changing the topic into a personal poly issue, or get out of the thread.

[Arrian]

First and foremost, this sucks for all the obvious reasons. Boo

Second,

Now we have a martyr. God bless you Jim!

I do believe that "ghoulish" was a pretty good description. Damn.

-Arrian

[Lorizael]

Back on topic now, folks. Since moving posts is a hassle, I'll just start banning posters if they make this thread personal again. If you have an issue with another poster or the moderation here, PM a mod or bring it up in the moderator thread.

[rah]

Thank god I don't have to make these types of moderation issues.

For the record, I didn't see anybody post any glee about the shooting here except for one person. So saying pro-choice people are indifferent to this is outright wrong.

[Ben Kenobi]

Thank you Lori for moving the post. I've edited out the sig.

[Ben Kenobi]

I didn't see anybody post any glee about the shooting here except for one person

I don't know what's so hard to understand. The man is in paradise. All I said was God bless you Jim!

[Asher]

How many virgins do Christian martyrs get in "Paradise"?

[Lorizael]

It's quitting time at work, poly people. This means I'm hopping on the beltway and going home. This means that I'll be very angry when I get home and much more likely to start handing out indiscriminate bans. So behave.

[rah]

When I was young and an alterboy, I served many a funeral. Even the widows that thought their husbands were in heaven didn't quite have your attitude. I smell baloney.

I had more formal Christian training then you will ever have so don't tell me what to understand. I think I'm seeing quite clearly.

[Arrian]

All I said was God bless you Jim!

You also said "Now we have a martyr." You expressed pleasure that this man's death is a political weapon. I'm not saying that nobody else has ever done such a thing in the history of political discourse (b/c clearly they have). I'm saying it's effing COLD, man.

I don't know why you even bother to play coy about this. Everyone can read your post, and I think that anyone possessing even marginal intelligence can understand the meaning.

-Arrian

[Asher]

It's quitting time at work, poly people. This means I'm hopping on the beltway and going home. This means that I'll be very angry when I get home and much more likely to start handing out indiscriminate bans. So behave.

Frankly, I am offended by the implication that I've ever misbehaved.

[Ben Kenobi]

You also said "Now we have a martyr." You expressed pleasure that this man's death is a political weapon.

I could see it if that were my first post, but it's not. I only said that after I read about the situation. I don't think 'glee' is the right word. Astonishment perhaps. Think of it as OMG, a martyr!

I'm saying it's effing COLD, man.

Why? For Christians death is the end of our life here and hopefully, the beginning of our days in heaven. How is it colder than an Irish wake?