Sarah Palin: Completely bat****

[KrazyHorse]

Mark cited death rates for prostate and breast cancer: 19% and 25% in the US, vs 57% and 46% in Britain. The Canadian death rates aren't as bad because many of them are able to come to the US for treatment instead of waiting for rationed treatment in Canada until it's too late.

5 year survival rates are a ridiculous statistic because of lead time bias (additional time somebody is known to have the disease due to more widespread testing). I have already linked to a paper which attempts to correct for this bias by looking at a time series of mortality rates for prostate and breast cancer. The US does show a significant drop in these rates relative to other countries as more advanced treatements become available, but it's nowhere near as dramatic as the 5 year survival statistic would make things seem. Also, your contention that "many" Canadians go to the US for medical treatment is simply ridiculous. Only a very small number actually travel to the US for treatment of life-threatening illnesses. For example, my family isn't exactly poor, but there was absolutely no thought of sending my mother to the US for treatment either of the times she got breast cancer. It would have bankrupted us without a doubt. In both cases, surgery and radiotherapy were commenced within a couple of weeks of the cancer being found.

Your posts in this thread are not fundamentally in touch with reality. Tens of thousands of Canadians at a single hospital trying desperately to escape rationed care and give themselves a chance at life:

[Kidlicious]

No, the death panels aren't the consultations. The death panels are the bureaucrats who decide from afar which medicines and treatments and patients will get funded.

When there aren't enough resources decisions like that have to be made. For example, when a ship is sinking the women and children get the life rafts first.

[Straybow]

I'm still trying to figure out what the heck this has to do with discussing end of life treatment options with your doctor. I'm already on record that I'm suspicious about any plan that congress passes and believe there is no way it will be a good one, so what's your point here?

I'm still trying to figure out why you think end of life treatment consultations are the issue. That's the Democrap diversion: "Look, we'll take that part out and the problem is solved." Not in the least. Palin said the treatment of her down's syndrome boy would be at risk under the plan, too. The issue is the power grab. Kill it dead, no reform is better than this turd of a bill.

[rah]

Maybe because that was what I was talking about when I was argueing with Ben.
Yes there are other issues, and as I've stated I doubt I'll approve of whatever comes out of the compromise phase.

[Ramo]

Palin said the treatment of her down's syndrome boy would be at risk under the plan, too.

That is utterly retarded. What exactly is the mechanism in any of the pieces of legislation on the table that would facilitate such a thing?

[Lorizael]

Well the problem is rationing. The first responsibility of being a doctor should be to do no harm. If you add an incentive for the doctor to establish a death panel, financial pressures from the system will prompt them to suggest this as a higher priority than treatment.

So what you're saying is that there might be an incentive for ethically challenged doctors who care more about abstract financial pressures than their patients to suggest to elderly patients that they consider hospice care or living wills. Are you still going to stand by your statement (or Palin's statement) that the bill introduced "mandatory death panels?"

[Ben Kenobi]

So what you're saying is that there might be an incentive for ethically challenged doctors who care more about abstract financial pressures than their patients to suggest to elderly patients that they consider hospice care or living wills.

I'm saying it already happens. This just means they would have gotten a greater incentive to do so.

Are you still going to stand by your statement (or Palin's statement) that the bill introduced "mandatory death panels?"

If that's your interpretation of Palin's statement, then yes.

[Guynemer]

Iamjustthisclose to firing up the ignore list.

[Ramo]

Guy, you need to stop killing mentally retarded kids and the elderly for profit and socialism. It isn't right.

[Lorizael]

BK, your words, my bolding:

I read the bill, and death panels are a good description. Forcing the elderly to attend a health panel every 5 years to 'discuss their treatment options', is bad policy. Glad to know at least one party actually gives a **** about seniors.

After reading the bill, you had concluded that it forced the elderly to attend health panels.

There is nothing wrong with discussing treatment options. It's something seniors should be more open about since not having that discussion can lead to treatments that the patient wouldn't have wanted. IT would save money and be more considerate to the patients

Fine. Don't make it mandatory. You can't force people to do something they don't want to do.

And again you state your belief that discussion of these treatment options is mandatory.

This isn't an interpretation. These are your words. Do you honestly believe that the Advance Care Planning Consultation provision would have mandatory death panels that the elderly would be forced to attend?

[Ben Kenobi]

This isn't an interpretation. These are your words. Do you honestly believe that the Advance Care Planning Consultation provision would have mandatory death panels that the elderly would be forced to attend?

Yes. Next question please?

Let me be clear. I'm not in any way suggesting that all doctors want to do things this way or even the majority. But I am saying it happens up here already without any need for 'death panels' or incentives. This is what has me concerned for you folks down there. I certainly didn't mean to suggest that Guynemer as a doctor would want these things either.

[rah]

Let me be clear. .

with all the crap you just make up, I doubt this is possible.

Thanks, that made my day.

[Guynemer]

Yup. That did it. I'm done.

[notyoueither]

It's a wonderful world where every American who needs care gets it when they need it and there are no barriers in the system preventing people from getting life saving treatments.

It's a wonderful world, but I doubt it describes the US on the Earth that we inhabit.

[rah]

Be careful....................................
You Are About to Enter "The BEN Zone"