Sarah Palin: Completely bat****

[Ben Kenobi]

Considering that other right wingers like DinoDoc or Straybow are not "ganged up" or "rolled", perhaps you think about why you are subject to a lot of people calling you a moron.

DD's a sniper and Stray is on late when the gang is sleeping.

I'll take "principles of Alinsky" for 500 alex.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Well, that to me is arrogant. For someone who's arguing he's open-minded and tolerant, that's a dismissive statement. Look, as I said I disagree with you. It doesn't mean you are stupid for doing so. It simply means we have a difference of opinions.

Facts are not opinions. Logical processes are not opinions. Just because somebody is open-minded and tolerant does not mean that no objective truth or structure exists. The problem is--consistently, mind you--with your arguments and your grip on facts. If you come to different conclusions through good processes, then fine, accepting that is part of being tolerant. If not...

And yes, I know what your answer to that is, so you may as well skip it since I'm not going to reply to it anyway.

[Ben Kenobi]

Facts are not opinions. Logical processes are not opinions. Just because somebody is open-minded and tolerant does not mean that no objective truth or structure exists.

It's an excellent argument, except for the fact that I'm the objectivist and Imran is not. Imran has consistantly denied that objective truth exists, and prefers subjectivism.

I'm all for the belief in objective truth. I simply believe I'm correct on this point that there is a significant movement and support for euthanasia. I don't see why you should shy away from a bill that seeks to entrench these principles, and act all that surprised when people see through smokescreens. Rationed care is a good way to push towards euthanasia as a means to control costs, if you have to ration things then someone has to make the tough decisions.

I'm not going to reply to it anyway.

Then why bother to fire a shot off if you don't expect it to be returned? Seriously. Adding this **** just makes it more likely.

[SlowwHand]

I was just outside smoking, and thinking about how I need to make it clear to my daughter and brothers that if I'm laying there, can't communicate and can't move, but I have thought process, pull the plug with all haste, because I'll be in living Hell.
Euthanasia.

[Straybow]

The death panal wasn't removed. What the morons were claiming was the death panal was removed. So yes the consultations were removed because most repug were to stupid not to know the difference, and the Dems were tired of explaining it. A ****ty reason to remove it but understandable due to the circumstances. But it's crap like this that tells me that any health care solution that does past muster in both houses is unlikely to be any good.

No, the death panels aren't the consultations. The death panels are the bureaucrats who decide from afar which medicines and treatments and patients will get funded. They decide who lives and dies, like the British who don't want to spend money on the latest breast cancer drugs, so those women who don't respond to the cheaper treatments die unless they can pay for drugs themselves.

That's because your reading comprehension skills are as good as your logic skills, they don't exist.
And I'll be a senior in less than 5 months, so I think I give a **** more about them then you.
There is nothing wrong with discussing treatment options. It's something seniors should be more open about since not having that discussion can lead to treatments that the patient wouldn't have wanted. IT would save money and be more considerate to the patients. Whether every 5 years is necessary is something open to debate. But in general it's fear mongers like you that will keep some seniors from every having any such discussions. That is NOT good for seniors.

Mark Steyn was talking on the radio about an elderly friend who visited him from Britain. Her left hand had been effectively crippled for about a decade. She had monthly consultations with her government-provided doctor. He would pat her knee, say, "Poor dear, nothing we can do," and give her perscription strength Paracetamol (Tylenol).

Shortly after arrival her arm swelled up. Mark took her to some dinky, rural New Hampshire hospital where they did an MRI and ran a couple of standard tests and found out she had a chronic case of gout.

For ten flippin' years her own doctor couldn't order tests because her case wasn't severe enough to qualify. After all, she could just barely dress herself, and old folks don't really need to drive. Like Obama said in the town hall meeting, the British health service said she was too old to be worthy of a few hundred pounds worth of actual treatment.

No thanks, rah, not interested in that kind of "health care." Maybe you'd rather curl up and die when you get something that costs more than a Tylenol prescription to treat. We spend more per capita on medicine because we're actually getting what we pay for. Mark cited death rates for prostate and breast cancer: 19% and 25% in the US, vs 57% and 46% in Britain. The Canadian death rates aren't as bad because many of them are able to come to the US for treatment instead of waiting for rationed treatment in Canada until it's too late.

[notyoueither]

No thanks, rah, not interested in that kind of "health care." Maybe you'd rather curl up and die when you get something that costs more than a Tylenol prescription to treat. We spend more per capita on medicine because we're actually getting what we pay for. Mark cited death rates for prostate and breast cancer: 19% and 25% in the US, vs 57% and 46% in Britain. The Canadian death rates aren't as bad because many of them are able to come to the US for treatment instead of waiting for rationed treatment in Canada until it's too late.

Do you have figures for how 'many?'

[Straybow]

From Palin's Facebook...

As Lane also points out:
"Though not mandatory, as some on the right have claimed, the consultations envisioned in Section 1233...

So Palin quotes and agrees with a journalist who says the death panels aren't mandatory.

Please read the whole argument:

My original comments concerned statements made by Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, a health policy advisor to President Obama and the brother of the President’s chief of staff. Dr. Emanuel has written that some medical services should not be guaranteed to those “who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens....An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia.” [10] Dr. Emanuel has also advocated basing medical decisions on a system which “produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.” [11]

[Straybow]

Do you have figures for how 'many?'

One of the giant University hospitals in Tucson, AZ has over 10,000 Canadians coming there for treatment every year. Can't say how many for cancer, nor for those specific cancers.

[notyoueither]

One of the giant University hospitals in Tucson, AZ have over 10,000 Canadians coming there for treatment every year.

I asked because there would be no insurance paying for it. Anyone seeking treatment in the US would be paying out of pocket.

I am doubting the number of people who could do so, and the number who would do so, would amount to a significant number of sick Canadians.

I do know that people do cross the border with their wallets, I am just questioning the number.

[notyoueither]

Ah, AZ. Yes.

That would be the winter destination of a lot of retired from half of Canada. I am not surprised that 100's of thousands of aging snow-birds would result in a lot of people needing some sort of medical care while they are down there.

[chequita guevara]

****, 20% of Canada visits Florida yearly according to one book I read. That's about six million people. Be rather odd if some of them didn't need to go to the hospital.

[notyoueither]

Eastern Canadians tend to go to Florida. People from the West most often go to Arizona.

They get travellers insurance and would thus be covered for some care while in the US. I doubt cancer patients would qualify for any sort of insurance, and the number of patients who could both afford to pay their own way and who would want to go would be a very, very small number of overall cases.

I think the 20% number is overblown or misremembered, but there are a large number of Canadians who do go south. Heck, some of them are ordered to by their doctors (assuming they can afford to). People with respiratory illnesses of some forms, I think.

[DinoDoc]

As if private health insurance doesn't ration much more harshly.

You're trying to divert the discussion onto a different topic now but this post from another thread should be an adequate answer to the essential point of our disagreement (differing levels of trust in governmental vs private entities).

[rah]

No, the death panels aren't the consultations. The death panels are the bureaucrats who decide from afar which medicines and treatments and patients will get funded. They decide who lives and dies, like the British who don't want to spend money on the latest breast cancer drugs, so those women who don't respond to the cheaper treatments die unless they can pay for drugs themselves.

Mark Steyn was talking on the radio about an elderly friend who visited him from Britain. Her left hand had been effectively crippled for about a decade. She had monthly consultations with her government-provided doctor. He would pat her knee, say, "Poor dear, nothing we can do," and give her perscription strength Paracetamol (Tylenol).

Shortly after arrival her arm swelled up. Mark took her to some dinky, rural New Hampshire hospital where they did an MRI and ran a couple of standard tests and found out she had a chronic case of gout.

For ten flippin' years her own doctor couldn't order tests because her case wasn't severe enough to qualify. After all, she could just barely dress herself, and old folks don't really need to drive. Like Obama said in the town hall meeting, the British health service said she was too old to be worthy of a few hundred pounds worth of actual treatment.

No thanks, rah, not interested in that kind of "health care." Maybe you'd rather curl up and die when you get something that costs more than a Tylenol prescription to treat. We spend more per capita on medicine because we're actually getting what we pay for. Mark cited death rates for prostate and breast cancer: 19% and 25% in the US, vs 57% and 46% in Britain. The Canadian death rates aren't as bad because many of them are able to come to the US for treatment instead of waiting for rationed treatment in Canada until it's too late.

I'm still trying to figure out what the heck this has to do with discussing end of life treatment options with your doctor. I'm already on record that I'm suspicious about any plan that congress passes and believe there is no way it will be a good one, so what's your point here?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I was just outside smoking, and thinking about how I need to make it clear to my daughter and brothers that if I'm laying there, can't communicate and can't move, but I have thought process, pull the plug with all haste, because I'll be in living Hell.
Euthanasia.

Then by all means do the right thing. If Terry Shiavo didn't teach anything to this country, it should have been a wake up call to all to make sure they get it down in writing either through one of these free legal kits or by consultation with your lawyer( who actually should be paid for these kinds of things as opposed to your doctor).

The legally provable decisions you make then should be conveyed to your health care providers if and when the time arises.