Sarah Palin: Completely bat****

[Ben Kenobi]

It’s misleading for the President to describe this section as an entirely voluntary provision that simply increases the information offered to Medicare recipients. The issue is the context in which that information is provided and the coercive effect these consultations will have in that context.

Palin's words.

She goes on to quote Lane, who says:

Once they’re in the meeting, the bill does permit “formulation” of a plug-pulling order right then and there

Hence the term death panels.

[Ben Kenobi]

Your dishonesty about it is what makes you evil despite whatever religious crap you hide behind. Come back when you can admit you were wrong about anything.

Which has **** all to do with the thread. Let's stick to the discussion and keep out all the 'evil' crap which never should have come in at all.

[chequita guevara]

Why do you hate America, Lori?

[Lorizael]

BK, do you understand that the Advance Care Planning Consultation section is an amendment to a part of the United States Code that defines terms? It's a glossary. The death panels appear only in the glossary.

It's an addition to this, as laid out here.

Please show me where in the glossary it states that these death panels are mandatory, and please show me where it states the formulation of a pull the plug order.

[chequita guevara]

Agreed. There's still the matter of rationing

As if private health insurance doesn't ration much more harshly.

[Ben Kenobi]

practitioners must explain “the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice,” and the government benefits available to pay for such services. [4]

See HR 3200 sec. 1233 (hhh)(1)(E).

[Lorizael]

If you'll notice, BK, the must is from her Facebook post, not the bill.

(hhh)(1)(e) says, in its entirety, "(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title."

The section is a glossary. It's a definition of terms - specifically, the term "Medical and Other Health Services."

[Ben Kenobi]

Which is the same quote, word for word.

Among EOL services are DNR orders, etc.

[Lorizael]

Holy Christ, I know! Tell me where in the bill it says these consultations are mandatory, and tell me where it says doctors can formulate an order to pull the plug!

The section you mentioned doesn't say anything about mandatory consultations, and the phrase "continuum of end-of-life services and support" doesn't mention anything about causing the end of a life.

[KrazyHorse]

Put him on ignore, Lori. Do it...

[Ben Kenobi]

I've already said, in the Palin quote up above that paying doctors to have these 'consultations' is coercive in that they are not patient-driven or requested.

The section you mentioned doesn't say anything about mandatory consultations, and the phrase "continuum of end-of-life services and support" doesn't mention anything about causing the end of a life.

Fine. What constitutes EOL services? Among them are DNRs, etc. Are you disputing the assertion?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Put him on ignore, Lori. Do it...

As a mod, I don't think he's really allowed to. After all, he has to make sure he can ban him for things he may say.

[Dr Strangelove]

I've already said, in the Palin quote up above that paying doctors to have these 'consultations' is coercive in that they are not patient-driven or requested.

Why do you say they're not patient requested? Patients often ask me about these topics. Furthermore why does it matter if the consultation is asked for? I often approach my patients to discuss topics without their asking, topics like quitting smoking, cutting down on drinking, proper use of antibiotics and so on. Are you saying that if I initiate a discussion of a topic without a patient asking for it I'm coercing them? You know I've heard the same argument from alcoholics and drug addicts.

Fine. What constitutes EOL services? Among them are DNRs, etc. Are you disputing the assertion?

EOL services would include advance medical directives, living wills, hospice, DNR orders, power of attorney, and organ donation.

[Lorizael]

I've already said, in the Palin quote up above that paying doctors to have these 'consultations' is coercive in that they are not
patient-driven or requested.

Doctors are also being paid to do a lot of other things. Why, in particular, would doctors decide to get their money by coercing patients into killing themselves when they can just as easily get money by treating their patients in different ways? Does the bill say that doctors will be paid more if they suggest establishing a death panel?

[Ben Kenobi]

Doctors are also being paid to do a lot of other things. Why, in particular, would doctors decide to get their money by coercing patients into killing themselves when they can just as easily get money by treating their patients in different ways? Does the bill say that doctors will be paid more if they suggest establishing a death panel?

Well the problem is rationing. The first responsibility of being a doctor should be to do no harm. If you add an incentive for the doctor to establish a death panel, financial pressures from the system will prompt them to suggest this as a higher priority than treatment.