Prediction Thread: When Will Ukraine Conquer Russia

[BeBMan]

NATO promised Gorbachev that it wouldn't expand further east after the reunification of Germany, but it broke that promise.​

Feel free to provide the text of the mutually agreed treaty.

Technically after the collapse of the Soviet Union it had no further need to exist as it had accomplished its mission. And yet for some reason it decided not only to keep existing, but to expand right up to Russia's doorstep...

Obviously there's still a very good reason to exist for NATO, as events in Ukraine show.

You know that Putin actually wanted to join NATO but was rebuffed, right?

Yes, and it's a good thing, since Russia is not ready to be in an alliance with other democratic states, and has not been at any point with Putin in power.

So I guess if everyone is saying you're a bully and ganging up on you, you're pretty much going to develop a persecution complex. You're certainly going to think that everyone is unfriendly and actively trying to make you weaker.

Everyone knows the type of person Putin is. He set a red line and the West crossed it anyway, knowing full well the likely consequences - which is the war we see now.

What red lines did Russia cross that Nappy was forced to invade back then?

What would have been the alternative? Not appeasement and certainly not an entire nation being ruined for some chicken hawk dick waving...

If there's a great alternative Russia did not follow it vs. Nappy. Ergo, Russia is responsible for everything Nappy.

There's been two Western backed revolutions in Ukraine that have overthrown democratically elected governments that were not committed to joining NATO, then suddenly they were. Perhaps if the Ukrainians were allowed to get on with their own self determination in peace and quiet, none of this **** would be happening...?

If Russia is serious about Ukraininan self determination it surely would not have any prob with Ukraine choosing its own path, be it in or outside NATO/whatever. Thing is that Russia only accepts self-determination when it can set the limits of it, which means in the end no self determination at all.

I don't remember Russia being overtly hostile towards Ukraine until the 2014 revolution and when all that **** kicked off, where Russia sought to defend its strategic assets in Crimea as a result.

Funny. I don't remeber Nappy being hostile to Russia until someone in Russia had the temerity to be against him (probably set a red line against being against him).

Incidentally, Crimea is historically a part of Russia and not Ukraine.

Esp. if you cherry-pick the point in history which supports this, and ignore the rest. Alaska never forget!

People like John Mearsheimer are a good start, or even George Kennan back in the day. These guys aren't Putin apologists and neither am I, but they are realists.​

For people on a CIV forum, one could be forgiven for wondering if any of you have played the game at all...?
​

Civ had ideology and religion, which is rather irrelevant if you ask (neo)realists.



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[pchang]

I tthink the real history lesson here is that an American must have stolen Mobius’ girlfriend and poisoned his dog in the distant past.

[N35t0r]

I mean, it worked with Hitler, right? Chamberlain and Daladier did achieve their peace for our time in Munich.

[giblets]

Putin is a war criminal, I guess we should have kept appeasing him and making concessions to him

[Bereta_Eder]

Actually I think that for every european nation (except possibly wales) standing up to russia is an identity issue too

[Bereta_Eder]

And to further accentuate your point the only nations in europe that did not move fast enough to enter NATO are now either satellites, colonies or invaded by Russia. All of them.

And the ones that were fast, are not

[Lorizael]

No one has ever adequately explained to me how countries voluntarily deciding to join the "please don't invade me, Russia" defensive pact hurts Russia (other than making it harder for Russia to invade countries).

[N35t0r]

His "Putin is a bully so we should let him do whatever he wants" is also dumb as hell

[Bereta_Eder]

I repsect mobius for his left wing ideas but on this i disagree with him even though I see his point (which is pure russian propaganda)

Ukranians deserve to be free and in europe. simple as that

[N35t0r]

What Russian imperialist aggression? I think you'll find that NATO expanded when Russia was too weak to do anything about it, not the other way around.

This... doesn't exactly make the point you want to push.

NATO didn't expand in Eastern Europe because it invaded all those countries. It expanded because all those countries knew Russia would want them under their heel sooner or later... And they didn't exactly enjoy the last time they were.

[BeBMan]

If Putin invested more in combat capability than in online trolling the world could be in trouble.

[BeBMan]

I guess NATO-Navalny crossed a lot of red lines, so Putin was basically forced to do something.

[EPW]

Oh god not another one.

[Lorizael]

Perhaps it's you guys being fed US propaganda, just like all the lies that emerged about Iraq like WMDs etc. How many of the usual suspects here got sucked in by that, I know I certainly wasn't. So yeah, my views have been remarkably consistent, actually.

Pretty sure the consistent view here would be: imperialist powers shouldn't invade other countries and kill a bunch of people. That was my view in 2003 and my view now.

[Lorizael]

I mean what else was Putin going to do?

Not invade Ukraine and kill a bunch of people?