Prediction Thread: When Will Ukraine Conquer Russia

[Ming]

Berz will believe whatever he sees on line that supports his narrative. And anything he can blame Biden for.
And yeah, this supposed agreed upon treaty has never been seen. Everything coming from Russia is that the only way to end the war was to give up territory and not let anybody else provide them with security. In other words, they can be a bully and steal land.
They already stole land once, and tried again. Who in their right mind believes they wouldn't keep trying for more. Oh, that's right, you probably do.

[Geronimo]

Yes, Azov led the assault on the east after the coup. They took Mariupol and made it their base until Russia expelled them in '22. When Zelensky showed up trying to enforce Minsk they told him to get lost. The army follows orders, the Nazis issue the orders. I dont blame him, they'd kill him if he tried to stop the fighting and they'd have our blessing. Right Sector and Svoboda and Azov are not limited to the military, following the coup top people in these organizations were given jobs high up in the government. Their leader was one of the 3 people Nuland was considering to replace the guy about to run for his life. She's so prescient... Pray she never shows up in your neighborhood with cookies and democracy.

Why are you still arguing there was no deal? I posted another link showing they had a deal, Zelensky and Putin did want peace and Biden made an offer Zelensky couldn't refuse. Do you have a link showing Putin ordered attacks in the east after he withdrew from Kiev and before Zelensky saved his own neck? The deal would have returned the situation to Feb 23 but we already know 2 actors supported the deal and 2 opposed it. Putin and Zelensky wanted it and Azov and the USA didn't want it. Take a good look at our allies, remind you of moderate rebels fighting our proxy war against Syria? What do you think would have happened to Zelensky if he defied both the USA and Azov? Another coup, another executed traitor.

why would a link be needed to Putin's orders? The whole world saw the Russian military rout to the border from Kiev and you declare that was under the terms of Putin's peace deal with Zelensky. If that was the case why didn't we see similar movement from the rest of the front?

As far as I can tell you provide plenty of links to sources explaining how Ukraine's various allies declared that they were urging Ukraine to avoid any major concessions to Russia and assuring Ukraine they would have the support they would need to stay in the fight. That is not vetoing or shooting down a peace deal. At worst it would be lobbying to to avoid a peace deal. The problem you have Berz is there is no draft document with the appropriate signatures from both sides and such draft documents as have been suggested to be the text of the "peace deal" are not consistent with the behavior of either side. I would expect at that time that Ukraine's allies were afraid that a desperate Zelensky might surrender or sign a document as a desperate measure to buy time for Ukraine that they were convinced Putin would not ultimately honor. If they prevailed on Ukraine to not sign anything that is not saying no to a peace deal. That is advising against a deal. As it happens any deal would be with a person who had just violated tons of related agreements. It would be terrible for Ukraine and its allies if having signed such a deal and started to implement any of its terms Putin later attacked Ukraine from an even more favorable position.

You have zero evidence that Zelensky or anyone else trusted Putin to keep any deal that would be signed with him. It is no wonder that no deal was signed and from a humanitarian perspective it is a fortunate thing as well.

[Berzerker]

I guess we should give most of the Southwest back to Mexico, since many Mexicans live in those states. And they are being treated poorly by the Alt Right Bigots.

You keep repeating your mantra as if it's ABSOLUTE TRUTH. You posted a "link'... oh boy, it must be fact and reality since it was a LINK.
There are many other "links" and information that dispute your version of the Truth. But I guess you are the only person allowed to "know truth" because you saw it on the internet.

In your world, Biden is to be blamed for all the world problems... That HE ALONE is the reason for the war in Ukraine. And that Russia with all of it's goodness is SAVING all those downtrodden people from the evil Ukraine government. We won't mention the fact that Russia is killing and raping them while destroying their towns and their lives... because you seem to forget that ACTUAL FACT.
But I guess that's what happens when you only look for sources that support your opinion.

I wouldn't condemn those people to live under Mexico's rule, if they want to secede it aint my business. I have no moral authority (consent) to force them to stay much less empower Mexico City. But I do know if Russia toppled the Mexican govt and sent alt-right bigots to attack protesters south of our border Americans would be pouring money, weapons and themselves into the fight to defend the victims.

Do you have a link refuting the various stories showing they made a deal? I haven't seen any rebuttals, just moving goal posts. Lot of people to blame, but Biden's the prez and he's been involved with just about every self-imposed disaster over a half century. We armed Nazis to kill Ukrainians and cried foul when Russians attacked our Nazis. Thats why we dont have the world on our side, just the people we bribe or threaten or coerce into submission.

[Ming]

I guess we should give most of the Southwest back to Mexico, since many Mexicans live in those states. And they are being treated poorly by the Alt Right Bigots.

You keep repeating your mantra as if it's ABSOLUTE TRUTH. You posted a "link'... oh boy, it must be fact and reality since it was a LINK.
There are many other "links" and information that dispute your version of the Truth. But I guess you are the only person allowed to "know truth" because you saw it on the internet.

In your world, Biden is to be blamed for all the world problems... That HE ALONE is the reason for the war in Ukraine. And that Russia with all of it's goodness is SAVING all those downtrodden people from the evil Ukraine government. We won't mention the fact that Russia is killing and raping them while destroying their towns and their lives... because you seem to forget that ACTUAL FACT.
But I guess that's what happens when you only look for sources that support your opinion.

[Berzerker]

You've continually declared that Azov was the enforcer of US policy in Ukraine and the check on Zelensky's desire to implement the Minsk agreement. Now you say they are part of a wider movement, Right Sector, Svoboda that are all folded into the military and control it. How is that supposed to work? How do you covertly control a military by folding your mercenaries into the national military's command and pay structure? Again, if Zelensky and Putin wanted peace between each how would Boris, Biden and NATO stop them?

Furthermore, Russia never stopped shelling, invading and generally bombing anywhere else along the huge front with Ukraine while it was withdrawing from the Kiev area leaving its heavy equipment behind. What in the hell is simple about that? What possible terms would have allowed Russia to continue any of that? What is obvious is that either Ukraine and Russia had no deal or if they did it was secret and immediately broken by Russia. Not simple Berz. There were negotiations occurring between Ukraine and Russia and Ukraine was sending out feelers of which demands it considered totally non negotiable and NATO and other allies did communicate to Ukraine what they thought they could offer in terms of support to give Ukraine a way to avoid capitulation or defeat but nobody anywhere claims they said or were in a position to say "no" to any kind of deal between Ukraine and Russia. No power on earth could have stopped Ukraine, or any government really from surrendering. Every source you have provided fails to show otherwise. Finally even if they had surrendered it obviously would not have saved any lives because Russia was continuing to attack Ukraine along the entire front, except where their forces had been encircled, depleted and cut off from supplies where they abandoned equipment and routed across the border in total disarray.

Yes, Azov led the assault on the east after the coup. They took Mariupol and made it their base until Russia expelled them in '22. When Zelensky showed up trying to enforce Minsk they told him to get lost. The army follows orders, the Nazis issue the orders. I dont blame him, they'd kill him if he tried to stop the fighting and they'd have our blessing. Right Sector and Svoboda and Azov are not limited to the military, following the coup top people in these organizations were given jobs high up in the government. Their leader was one of the 3 people Nuland was considering to replace the guy about to run for his life. She's so prescient... Pray she never shows up in your neighborhood with cookies and democracy.

Why are you still arguing there was no deal? I posted another link showing they had a deal, Zelensky and Putin did want peace and Biden made an offer Zelensky couldn't refuse. Do you have a link showing Putin ordered attacks in the east after he withdrew from Kiev and before Zelensky saved his own neck? The deal would have returned the situation to Feb 23 but we already know 2 actors supported the deal and 2 opposed it. Putin and Zelensky wanted it and Azov and the USA didn't want it. Take a good look at our allies, remind you of moderate rebels fighting our proxy war against Syria? What do you think would have happened to Zelensky if he defied both the USA and Azov? Another coup, another executed traitor.

[Berzerker]

So again... your concept of a peace treaty is simply surrendering... So aggression should be rewarded.
And yet again, if Russia cared oh soooooo much about the people... Why did they kill and rape them while destroying their towns.
You never seem to answer that one... But I guess in your mind, the Russians are the real heroes in this story. Guess what, they aren't.
They have killed and raped far more people and have destroyed far more towns in their attempt to expand their empire while stealing another countries land. But keep continue to support them.
Russia's idea of peace is to take what they want, no matter who gets hurt.

What exactly is Ukraine surrendering? Control of Crimea and Donbas... I dont know how this can still be debatable after all this time but Crimea and Donbas dont want to be controlled by Kiev's Nazis. And it was Kiev that attacked the Donbas, not the other way around. Your victory for Ukraine means putting Nazis in charge of the peoples they've been killing for close to a decade now. After the 2014 coup Ukrainians fleeing the Nazis had a safe haven in eastern Ukraine, they wont have that if Kiev wins. I know who started the fight

[Ming]

Good luck convincing Berz his internet videos aren't THE TRUTH. He continues to sprout whatever they tell him to.
Remember, Biden is to blame for all the bad things going on in the world today

[Geronimo]

Azov was 'disappeared' into the army. In 2014 the Ukrainian army was small and Azov attacked and conquered Mariupol and was only driven out 8 years later by Russia. Why wasn't the Ukrainian army based in Mariupol? But Azov is just the obvious face of the wider movement, Right Sector, Svoboda, there's a bunch of right wing nationalists in the army who are the muscle on the ground. They were responsible for Maidan and undoubtedly the massacre that drove the leader from office. The Russians pulled back from Kiev because they had a deal with Ukraine, its that simple. And ofc the necons lied to us about it because they didn't want any credit for the war, kinda like how US politicians kept telling us 'they hate our freedom' after 9/11 to hide the fact thousands of Americans died for their agenda.

As for what Biden and friends did, they funded "reformers" to affect policy and looked the other way as their allies slaughtered protesters to frame the leader. We poured billions into this effort before the coup and afterward to arm the Ukrainian right wing (eg Azov). The media started noticing Obama and Biden were arming Nazis (and ISIS) so Congress got around to pretending they cared by prohibiting arms to Azov which the Pentagon ignored. If Russia was arming right wing nationalists attacking the people living along our border the USA would be unified behind defending the victims. They did surrender, they had a peace deal and we vetoed it. Next time they surrender Ukraine could be landlocked, the more Russian parts of the country probably dont want to be ruled by Kiev/CIA if Azov et al are still in charge and they likely will be. US policy is never ending war, been that way before I was born which was about when Ike left office with a warning about the military and Wall St. I dont think Russia will be satisfied with returning to 2014 with the front further west.

You've continually declared that Azov was the enforcer of US policy in Ukraine and the check on Zelensky's desire to implement the Minsk agreement. Now you say they are part of a wider movement, Right Sector, Svoboda that are all folded into the military and control it. How is that supposed to work? How do you covertly control a military by folding your mercenaries into the national military's command and pay structure? Again, if Zelensky and Putin wanted peace between each how would Boris, Biden and NATO stop them?

Furthermore, Russia never stopped shelling, invading and generally bombing anywhere else along the huge front with Ukraine while it was withdrawing from the Kiev area leaving its heavy equipment behind. What in the hell is simple about that? What possible terms would have allowed Russia to continue any of that? What is obvious is that either Ukraine and Russia had no deal or if they did it was secret and immediately broken by Russia. Not simple Berz. There were negotiations occurring between Ukraine and Russia and Ukraine was sending out feelers of which demands it considered totally non negotiable and NATO and other allies did communicate to Ukraine what they thought they could offer in terms of support to give Ukraine a way to avoid capitulation or defeat but nobody anywhere claims they said or were in a position to say "no" to any kind of deal between Ukraine and Russia. No power on earth could have stopped Ukraine, or any government really from surrendering. Every source you have provided fails to show otherwise. Finally even if they had surrendered it obviously would not have saved any lives because Russia was continuing to attack Ukraine along the entire front, except where their forces had been encircled, depleted and cut off from supplies where they abandoned equipment and routed across the border in total disarray.

[Ming]

So again... your concept of a peace treaty is simply surrendering... So aggression should be rewarded.
And yet again, if Russia cared oh soooooo much about the people... Why did they kill and rape them while destroying their towns.
You never seem to answer that one... But I guess in your mind, the Russians are the real heroes in this story. Guess what, they aren't.
They have killed and raped far more people and have destroyed far more towns in their attempt to expand their empire while stealing another countries land. But keep continue to support them.
Russia's idea of peace is to take what they want, no matter who gets hurt.

[Berzerker]

Azov was the smallest it has been in years when the Russians pulled back from Kiev. There is nothing Biden could have done, especially through Azov, to force Ukraine and Russia to wage war against each other.

​​​​​​Nobody said no to any peace deal. Ukraine's allies did assure them they wouldn't have to surrender. How can you not recognize the difference?

Azov was 'disappeared' into the army. In 2014 the Ukrainian army was small and Azov attacked and conquered Mariupol and was only driven out 8 years later by Russia. Why wasn't the Ukrainian army based in Mariupol? But Azov is just the obvious face of the wider movement, Right Sector, Svoboda, there's a bunch of right wing nationalists in the army who are the muscle on the ground. They were responsible for Maidan and undoubtedly the massacre that drove the leader from office. The Russians pulled back from Kiev because they had a deal with Ukraine, its that simple. And ofc the necons lied to us about it because they didn't want any credit for the war, kinda like how US politicians kept telling us 'they hate our freedom' after 9/11 to hide the fact thousands of Americans died for their agenda.

As for what Biden and friends did, they funded "reformers" to affect policy and looked the other way as their allies slaughtered protesters to frame the leader. We poured billions into this effort before the coup and afterward to arm the Ukrainian right wing (eg Azov). The media started noticing Obama and Biden were arming Nazis (and ISIS) so Congress got around to pretending they cared by prohibiting arms to Azov which the Pentagon ignored. If Russia was arming right wing nationalists attacking the people living along our border the USA would be unified behind defending the victims. They did surrender, they had a peace deal and we vetoed it. Next time they surrender Ukraine could be landlocked, the more Russian parts of the country probably dont want to be ruled by Kiev/CIA if Azov et al are still in charge and they likely will be. US policy is never ending war, been that way before I was born which was about when Ike left office with a warning about the military and Wall St. I dont think Russia will be satisfied with returning to 2014 with the front further west.

[Berzerker]

old people have a harder time sealing the vault and the truth leaks out occasionally

[BeBMan]

Every "peace" proposal I've seen has included a non-negotiable point of Ukraine's acceptance of Russia's illegal annexation of 4 Ukrainian territories (Luhansk, Donetsk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia) along with keeping Crimea.

That's not a peace proposal; it's surrender.

Indeed, and it would reward aggression if Russia can just keep stolen lands. In the absence of military success this is the primary reason for lobbying for these kind of "peace deals" .

This would make further aggression more likely, as there is no guarantee for Ukraine that Putin would not try the same again after he licked his wounds...

[Berzerker]

https://youtu.be/iPIyKRhg8vk

"Money trumps.... peace.... sometimes" - George Bush

money trumps peace

[Ming]

But remember... Berz blames Biden for every world crisis, and never considers that the actual invader who is trying to steal land is to blame.
In his mind, Putin just wanted to "save" all the people his troops randomly killed and raped, while destroying their towns. But I guess he saw it on a video on the internet.

One more time Berz... as JR says, there were no "PEACE DEALS" just demands to surrender.
But feel free to blame everything on Biden like you always do.

[-Jrabbit]

Every "peace" proposal I've seen has included a non-negotiable point of Ukraine's acceptance of Russia's illegal annexation of 4 Ukrainian territories (Luhansk, Donetsk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia) along with keeping Crimea.

That's not a peace proposal; it's surrender.