So what is up with the anti-government group in Michigan?

[Berzerker]

Yeah, there's an important gap in the sequence, but that looks like enough self defense to get a jury to acquit. The guy with the mace was arguing with another guy and then apparently the shooter intervened to prevent a fight and the mace man slapped him and then shot the mace at him before the gun was fired.

I wouldn't have shot the guy though, if he came at me that would be different. But mace tends to break up potential fights, not as a prelude to take a gun away and use it on someone. The mace man was backing away when he fired it, not exactly what I'd call a serious threat of future attack. Not when I'd be backing away too from the cloud of mace.

[Aeson]

I think the self defense relies on whether it's felony murder, if CO law allows self defense in felony murder, and if the sprayer had a gun in his left shoulder holster.

Sprayers left arm comes to left chest, right arm with mace swinging up and to the left.

With shooter hit in face, sunglasses knocked off, and looking towards sun, it could reasonably looked like sprayer was opening vest with left hand and going going for his gun with the right. Can't see the missing draw frames, but it does look like sprayer's right hand goes further left than it would if just spraying, but that may be due to momentum only.

Might have planned to spray, drop mace, draw in one motion. Just spraying at a shooter seems like a darwin award move.

Also the shooter going up to body and look back seem to suggest shooter did think the sprayer had gone for a gun. Approaching as if sprayer had deadly weapon, then a look of dismay when he saw the gun hadn't been drawn?

[Berzerker]

I didn't know mace man was armed too, that makes his use of mace more threatening. I assume shooter knew about his gun, if I was him I might have been reaching for my gun after the slap if I knew he had more than mace.

[Aeson]

He did start to go for gun almost immediately. He was probably blinded by sun and loss of sunglasses at that point. As well as any effect of the slap itself.

New footage from the reporter he was with. Sprayer threatened and attacked reporter first, shooter stepped between them. Then the slap.

https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1316162072724422656?s=20

[Berzerker]

nm...

[Kidlicious]

Given the photos and video available now it may be enough to convince a jury that it's not beyond reasonable doubt. I don't know if Colorado law allows for self defense plea for felony murder though, or if this would be felony murder.

Just about anyone can get away with murder if there's just one idiot on the jury that believes the defense attorney's bull**** story.

[Berzerker]

if a prosecutor got 11 of 12 they try him again

[Kidlicious]

Yeah, there's an important gap in the sequence, but that looks like enough self defense to get a jury to acquit. The guy with the mace was arguing with another guy and then apparently the shooter intervened to prevent a fight and the mace man slapped him and then shot the mace at him before the gun was fired.

I wouldn't have shot the guy though, if he came at me that would be different. But mace tends to break up potential fights, not as a prelude to take a gun away and use it on someone. The mace man was backing away when he fired it, not exactly what I'd call a serious threat of future attack. Not when I'd be backing away too from the cloud of mace.

Of course you wouldn't shoot him. You can't shoot someone even if they are reaching for a gun, let alone if you just think they are. It's a ridiculous defense and they are hoping for some ****ed up Democrat on the jury to acquit.

[-Jrabbit]

That's not what you said about Kyle Rittenhouse.

[Kidlicious]

Some idiot shot into the air. Kyle turned around and saw a mov attacking him. Totally different.

[Berzerker]

cops do it all the time

[Aeson]

I think Kid just argued that suicides by cop are murder?

It would be self defense if a jury felt a reasonable person would have felt the move to the weapon was a deadly threat.

[Kidlicious]

I think Kid just argued that suicides by cop are murder?

It would be self defense if a jury felt a reasonable person would have felt the move to the weapon was a deadly threat.

Cop is different. I think you know that.

I think you just argued that you can shoot people who appear to be naybe reaching for a gun. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't actually believe that scumbag was innocent.

[Berzerker]

the guy assaulted the gunman twice before getting shot

[Kidlicious]

And the gunman was trying to disarm him (gun or mace)

[Kidlicious]

He can get murder 1 too trying to defend himself like that.

[Aeson]

Cop is different. I think you know that.

Yes, but not in the way you think. Juries are more likely to aquit a citizen than a cop in this type of situation. Cops are trained to deal with these types of situations so are generally held to a higher standard when claiming self defense.

I think you just argued that you can shoot people who appear to be naybe reaching for a gun. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't actually believe that scumbag was innocent.

If you can get a jury to believe you that a reasonable person would have felt it was justified use of force in a state which allows for it, then you would be found not guilty of murder 1 or 2. That's not my opinion, it's the law.

The last video suggests to me that there is a reasonable doubt in regards to murder 1 (premeditated) or 2. Sprayer attacked the reporter and then attacked the shooter. I can see how a reasonable person may have felt the sprayer was going for his gun.

I'm open to evidence that would go beyond a reasonable doubt, but don't see it yet. As said before, he may still go down on felony murder if his carrying and/or acting as a security guard was unlicensed and a felony, but not sure on the law on that. A lesser charge like manslaughter might very well stick even if not.

[C0ckney]

I read something about this a few days ago, and now it turns out that one of the leaders of this "plot" is an FBI informant who encouraged the others to talk about and plan the kidnapping. There seem to be a lot of these cases where the law enforcement agents are the main, and sometimes only, actors in these "plots", which would never get off the ground otherwise. The whole 'left/right' debate seems designed to obscure this aspect.

[Berzerker]

that would be entrapment, the feds did that to Randy Weaver, they wanted a shotgun and they showed him where to cut it down beyond the legal limit

[Kidlicious]

Yes, but not in the way you think. Juries are more likely to aquit a citizen than a cop in this type of situation. Cops are trained to deal with these types of situations so are generally held to a higher standard when claiming self defense.



If you can get a jury to believe you that a reasonable person would have felt it was justified use of force in a state which allows for it, then you would be found not guilty of murder 1 or 2. That's not my opinion, it's the law.

The last video suggests to me that there is a reasonable doubt in regards to murder 1 (premeditated) or 2. Sprayer attacked the reporter and then attacked the shooter. I can see how a reasonable person may have felt the sprayer was going for his gun.

I'm open to evidence that would go beyond a reasonable doubt, but don't see it yet. As said before, he may still go down on felony murder if his carrying and/or acting as a security guard was unlicensed and a felony, but not sure on the law on that. A lesser charge like manslaughter might very well stick even if not.

No. I cop can shoot you if you fail to comply and appear to reach for a gun. A citizen can not. That's murder.

[Aeson]

You don't seem to understand the law.

[Kidlicious]

Yes I do. You are being ridiculous.