Non-proliferation is for sissies, nukes for everyone!

[OneFootInTheGrave]

??? Ukraine was never in the NATO. The Soviet Black Sea fleet was on Crimea, no NATO forces.

Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Albania list of former Warsaw pact countries in NATO today, with Romania/Poland part of the missile defence shield territories.

You also have cool stuff as this.

Nothing to worry about, move along.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Mars would then get nukes, and a first strike may actually be feasible (can get away with it without assured retaliation) on an interplanetary scale

At least we could claim that it's the Martians who got us, sounds better than that we self-destructed.

[Ben Kenobi]

Germany, I'd be shocked if they didn't already have a Nuclear program on the go.

[BeBMan]

Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Albania list of former Warsaw pact countries in NATO today, with Romania/Poland part of the missile defence shield territories.

You also have cool stuff as this.

Nothing to worry about, move along.

You are doing this here in reaction to my point that Russia did not honour its own guarantees given to Ukraine in exchange for their ex-Soviet nukes. What has the fact that Russia's guarantees are worth zilch to do with ex eastern block countries joining NATO? Russia is essentially sending the message that formally agreed intl. borders don't need to be respected anymore, which is one of the key reasons why it is seen as a major problem for Euro security.

Also why NATO expansion would mean mean a third-party and non-NATO country - Ukraine - has to suffer is beyond me.


Good news for everyone who loves old territorial gripes...

[OneFootInTheGrave]

There was a guarantee from the US to Russia that ex Warsaw pact countries will not be invited into NATO, so it has to do with breaking agreements.

As for precedent for breaking formally agreed international borders - it was set by US/EU with Kosovo.

Virtually the same setup, ethnic majority in another country wanted to secede, while the host country would not want to let it go, external forces made it be.

The only reason why Ukraine has to suffer was a coup of a democratically elected leader supported by the US, which was followed by the referendums in majority Russian parts of Ukraine, so we are where we are >>>territorial gripes.

[giblets]

Did the US sign a treaty that stated no former members of the Warsaw Pact would become NATO members?

[BeBMan]

There was a guarantee from the US to Russia that ex Warsaw pact countries will not be invited into NATO, so it has to do with breaking agreements.

Just curious - did you actually read the article you linked to? It makes pretty clear that things are not that easy. Your "guarantee" comes down to some statements of unclear political weight by Baker and Genscher that never made it into the end result of those negotiations. Also you conveniently ignore that the "expansion" was not the result of NATO just grabbing territory everywhere, but that those ex-Soviet countries wanted to be NATO members to make sure they're out of the Soviet block for good - which is hardly something that can be denied to them because Russia does not want it.

[kentonio]

Also you conveniently ignore that the "expansion" was not the result of NATO just grabbing territory everywhere, but that those ex-Soviet countries wanted to be NATO members to make sure they're out of the Soviet block for good - which is hardly something that can be denied to them because Russia does not want it.

Sure it could be denied to them to avoid destabilizing the situation with Russia, that kind of decisions are made all the time. Personally though I'm still extremely pissed that the talk about just inviting Russia into NATO never came to anything. I suspect the best possible move now to ensure peace would be to simply give the anti-ballistic missile technology to Russia.

[kentonio]

Mars would then get nukes, and a first strike may actually be feasible (can get away with it without assured retaliation) on an interplanetary scale

Have you been watching The Expanse?

[Ben Kenobi]

those ex-Soviet countries wanted to be NATO members to make sure they're out of the Soviet block for good - which is hardly something that can be denied to them because Russia does not want it.

Great post Bebro. We'll see what Trump will do. Far from being a 'Russian Pawn', it's Obama who caved on selling Ukraine out to Russia.

[Ben Kenobi]

destabilizing the situation with Russia, that kind of decisions are made all the time.

America could have done the same thing with you, Kentonio.

[giblets]

Putin is literally Hitler.

[BeBMan]

Sure it could be denied to them to avoid destabilizing the situation with Russia, that kind of decisions are made all the time.

In 1990 those negotiations took place both the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union were still existing. Without establishing some other security structure a formal agreement between the US/west/whatever and the USSR to not let Eastern European countries into the NATO would have meant those countries, several with very bad historical experiences with their big eastern neighbour would have been de facto denied to get out of the Soviet sphere of influence completely - which I think is unacceptable and also unrealistic given the momentum in Eastern Europe (that actually sparked the whole series of change that ended the Eastern block).

Those bad experiences are the reason why those countries wanted to be in the NATO in the first place, and not in some common, new form of Euro security regime together with Russia. It's hard to tell Poland, the Baltic States, and the others that they are out of the Warsaw Pact and free and souvereign, but have to enter a new security structure with Russia immediately.

As for Russia's loss of stability at the end/after the end of the Soviet Union - afaik the main reason was the transition from a centralized, planned economy to a capitalist market style one (which was or even is prolematic in all of Eastern Europe, though not everywhere on the same scale).

[rah]

Quick question, Would the press be going rabid if Trump recommended someone to be the ambassador to Germany who just happened to be a friend of Merkel?

[PLATO]

Sure it could be denied to them to avoid destabilizing the situation with Russia, that kind of decisions are made all the time. Personally though I'm still extremely pissed that the talk about just inviting Russia into NATO never came to anything. I suspect the best possible move now to ensure peace would be to simply give the anti-ballistic missile technology to Russia.

R E X

It is ALL about the Oil. NATO could set up in Moscow's suburbs and Putin wouldn't care if he got billions of dollars out of it and was able to keep oppresing his people.