Non-proliferation is for sissies, nukes for everyone!

[BeBMan]

Longer article for those who care on Euro/German considerations to go nuclear if Trump drops shielding Europe:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/europe-responds-to-trump-win-with-nuclear-deterrent-debate-a-1125186.html

It leaves a lot of questions though...

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Well, Europe can already self-defend, France to be precise (they don't depend on US like UK).

What's the problem with relying on the French as having a nuclear deterrent, is Germany getting ready for post-EU world?

Politically, though, things get more complicated. France has always viewed its nuclear capability as a national asset and has never placed its weapons under a NATO mandate. It coordinates with Brussels, but would decide independently of the alliance on any potential deployment of its nuclear weapons.

This is also due to Germany politically raping French for last decade and a half, so well France has something that Germany does not at the moment.

Germany should pay for the French to protect them (by letting them govern EU a bit more together) - I have a feeling that the real issue is "who is the boss" in EU, which clearly comes up as Germany.

One of the missing pieces of the puzzle are nukes, so... nothing to do with Trump, if US goes out, it will just expose EU rifts a little more, accelerate the inevitable.

[Jon Miller]

I think Germany should consider it, maybe Poland too.

SK and Japan should definitely join the club.

JM

[OneFootInTheGrave]

What about Ukraine? I think they need nukes the most/s.

It is amazing how nuclear holocaust becomes more and more appealing to people as time goes by.

[giblets]

China will throw a fit if Japan gets nukes lol

[Jon Miller]

Trump basically told Japan that they needed to get them if he became president. South Korea might be distracted right now, but I bet that Japan has a program already underway.

JM

[Jon Miller]

What about Ukraine? I think they need nukes the most/s.

It is too late for Ukraine.

Ukraine is already an example for every nation who is considering it. This is why I think that Iran is going to get nukes no matter what diplomacy is done. The US and Russia have shown that that is the only way to be safe and independent.

And yes, it is terrible. To have a better world we would have needed Russia and the US to have behaved differently.

JM

[BeBMan]

What about Ukraine? I think they need nukes the most/s.

They had some Soviet nukes left at the end of the Soviet Union - they (and other ex-Soviet states) bravely gave them up, which lead to the Budapest Memorandum in which US, UK and Russia guaranteed their souvereignty, independence and their borders. Turned out pretty well for Ukraine.

[giblets]

Trump is going to get briefed on a lot of things when he takes office... I doubt anything he says now about foreign policy actually matters.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

That's why the best investment for humanity would be a colony on Mars. Unlikely that we will get it before Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator goes kaboom though.

Let's see what Vlad has to say:

[OneFootInTheGrave]

They had some Soviet nukes left at the end of the Soviet Union - they (and other ex-Soviet states) bravely gave them up, which lead to the Budapest Memorandum in which US, UK and Russia guaranteed their souvereignty, independence and their borders. Turned out pretty well for Ukraine.

Crimea was always going to stay an issue as is the expansion of Nato to Russian borders.

Time to invest into those nuclear bunkers again, as it's more feasible than moving to Mars.

[BeBMan]

Well, Europe can already self-defend, France to be precise (they don't depend on US like UK).

What's the problem with relying on the French as having a nuclear deterrent, is Germany getting ready for post-EU world?

Politically, though, things get more complicated. France has always viewed its nuclear capability as a national asset and has never placed its weapons under a NATO mandate. It coordinates with Brussels, but would decide independently of the alliance on any potential deployment of its nuclear weapons.

This is also due to Germany politically raping French for last decade and a half, so well France has something that Germany does not at the moment.

Germany should pay for the French to protect them (by letting them govern EU a bit more together) - I have a feeling that the real issue is "who is the boss" in EU, which clearly comes up as Germany.

One of the missing pieces of the puzzle are nukes, so... nothing to do with Trump, if US goes out, it will just expose EU rifts a little more, accelerate the inevitable.

If this becomes a real concern at all, which is by no means certain, the most extreme case (Germany getting nukes on its own) would be domestically very difficult to do for any German gov. Due to Putin's little adventures the mood here might have shifted somewhat in recent times, but overall I don't see there's much appeal to the public in this whole getting nukes thing (it could rather spark major opposition). If it comes to that at all a coop solution with France would be way easier to sell here. Though the question is what's with France when the likes of Le Pen get more influence....


(The article also simply summed the Brit nukes in their as "European", which is true technically, but whether there's much appetite in the UK for some kind of commo EuroNuke policy is another thing)

[BeBMan]

Crimea was always going to stay an issue as is the expansion of Nato to Russian borders.

??? Ukraine was never in the NATO. The Soviet Black Sea fleet was on Crimea, no NATO forces.

[Jon Miller]

Trump is going to get briefed on a lot of things when he takes office... I doubt anything he says now about foreign policy actually matters.

He has been refusing briefings.

JM

[Aeson]

That's why the best investment for humanity would be a colony on Mars. Unlikely that we will get it before Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator goes kaboom though.

Mars would then get nukes, and a first strike may actually be feasible (can get away with it without assured retaliation) on an interplanetary scale