Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[-Jrabbit]

You are confusing competence with capacity. Can a 13 year old make a lifelong decision? Yes, if they are properly equipped and educated. Is such a student able to assess whether they are competent if they are learning about the Catholic church? No.

Meaningless sophistry. Although it kind of makes sense if you replace "properly equipped and educated" with "sufficiently indoctrinated."
Nice try.

That applied equally to me. I had to have an interview with a priest who would assess me in the same fashion as I assess my students. Until he was satisfied with my progress he would not confirm me.

So you, an adult convert, required assessment by a priest, but vulnerable young minds are entrusted to history teachers? Do you really think this helps your case? LOL.

These kids are just following social and family pressures. They are most assuredly not making adult decisions. Period.

If they had doubts about me, they would not have hired me, let alone keep me on for what will be my 7th year now.

Hey, at your bargain basement price, being a total RCC Kool-Aid drinker, and with likely "hire the disabled" tax credits for them, you represent tremendous value for the school/church. I actually think you would have difficulty getting fired.

[Giancarlo]

None if this changes the fact that kids are forced into the religion, Ben. You don't make a decision at that age to stay with such a corrupt religion all your life. Catholicism is easy one of the most corrupt in the world.

I been agnostic/atheist (going between the two) for about ten years now.

[Berzerker]

Actually, I guess, most conversions take place during advanced adulthood

I'm not surprised, Ben converted at least twice

[Giancarlo]

I'm not surprised, Ben converted at least twice

Ben can convert all he wants, but anyone else is stuck in their religion for life. If they try to escape, it could mean severe punishment. Sounds a bit like a cult.

[Ming]

Which leaders? You mean folks like Bishop Weakland? I notice you never name them, because then it makes it easier to tar the Church not those who are responsible.

I've named them before but you keep forgetting. You keep bringing up only Weakland's name in a poor attempt to make people think he's the only one. The list was long and was global... but you keep forgetting who they all are.

Given that the majority of the cases are serial abusers who engaged in abuse for a long time - they are the ones truly responsible. Thankfully, they have gone, and the total cases have dropped off once again.

They are responsible. But those that covered it up, moved them to other places so they could continue to be serial abusers... that's the real shame for the Church. Plus, the Church never helped ANY of the victims until they were forced to. Now that's just sick. They were more interested in protecting serial rapist than the victims.

The total incidence of cases peaked in 1982, at nearly 800 cases in that year. Up from just 50 in 1950. Incidents rose to 250 by 1959, and dropped back down to 250 by 1990. In 1994, the incidence of cases dropped back down to 50.

You mean those that were actually reported. Who knows how many actual cases there really were or are still going on today.

[Ben Kenobi]

None if this changes the fact that kids are forced into the religion, Ben. You don't make a decision at that age to stay with such a corrupt religion all your life.

Uh, yeah you can and many do just that. Why does it bother you so much, Gian?

[Ben Kenobi]

Meaningless sophistry.

Not at all. There's a difference in knowing what you need to know, and a difference between not being able to understand what you need to know. Arguing that 13 year olds are incapable of making this decision is quite wrong.

Although it kind of makes sense if you replace "properly equipped and educated" with "sufficiently indoctrinated."

I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand about the argument that 13 year olds are past the age of reason.

So you, an adult convert, required assessment by a priest, but vulnerable young minds are entrusted to history teachers? Do you really think this helps your case? LOL.

Oh, I see. You hate me sufficiently enough to not only denigrate what I do, but it now shapes and colors your opinions my students. I'm sorry, JR. The world is not as you see it.

These kids are just following social and family pressures. They are most assuredly not making adult decisions. Period.

Sez who? You?

If they had doubts about me, they would not have hired me, let alone keep me on for what will be my 7th year now. Hey, at your bargain basement price, being a total RCC Kool-Aid drinker, and with likely "hire the disabled" tax credits for them, you represent tremendous value for the school/church. I actually think you would have difficulty getting fired.

Easy enough - have my student progress drop from one year to the next. My students have done well, and easily outperform students in TX public schools. They read better, and they are rather competent. You'd be surprised at what we do.

[Ben Kenobi]

You mean those that were actually reported. Who knows how many actual cases there really were or are still going on today.

Are you suggesting they just stopped reporting cases? That's not a great argument. What evidence is for them suddenly stop reporting cases in 1990 and not in 1980?

They are responsible. But those that covered it up, moved them to other places so they could continue to be serial abusers... that's the real shame for the Church. Plus, the Church never helped ANY of the victims until they were forced to.

There's been about 5000 victims. The Church has already paid out 500 million, about 100k to each victim. That's a pretty substantial chunk of money.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben can convert all he wants, but anyone else is stuck in their religion for life.

I was confirmed just the once - in 2005. Catholicism works differently. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand.

[Ming]

Are you suggesting they just stopped reporting cases? That's not a great argument. What evidence is for them suddenly stop reporting cases in 1990 and not in 1980?

More cases are still coming up around the world... As you are aware, sexual abuse cases are some of the most underreported crimes.

There's been about 5000 victims. The Church has already paid out 500 million, about 100k to each victim. That's a pretty substantial chunk of money.

So you think the money makes it all right? The only reason the Church is even paying is because they were caught and forced to. It would say a lot more about the Church if they had started helping the victims right after they were aware of the problem instead of covering it up and waiting until they were actually caught and had no choice in the matter. When they had a choice, they choose to do NOTHING but protect the rapists.

[Ben Kenobi]

As you are aware, sexual abuse cases are some of the most underreported crimes.

True, but if underreporting were across the board, you'd not see the chart we're seeing. Only if for some reason the cutoff was 1990 for reporting. I don't see any evidence for that.

So you think the money makes it all right?

Are you saying the Church should not do any restitution?

The only reason the Church is even paying is because they were caught and forced to

Well, that's the way the criminal justice system works. They are innocent until proven guilty.

It would say a lot more about the Church if they had started helping the victims right after they were aware of the problem instead of covering it up

Indeed, it would have helped had folks like Bishop Weakland had been turfed in 1984 - when the allegations first came to light, rather than in 2002. Thankfully, they are gone now.

[Giancarlo]

Uh, yeah you can and many do just that. Why does it bother you so much, Gian?

Nope. Many are forced into religion at a young age. They didn't have a choice in the matter. You are one poor demented person, Ben.

[Ming]

Are you saying the Church should not do any restitution?

Didn't say that... I'm just pointing out that you statement "about 100k to each victim. That's a pretty substantial chunk of money" made it sound like you think that evens the scales...

Well, that's the way the criminal justice system works. They are innocent until proven guilty.

Yeah... but the leaders of the church KNEW they were guilty, and did nothing except provide them with more opportunities to rape even more children while strong arming the victims into silence, and doing nothing for them. I would expect your "innocent until proven guilty" comment if you were defending mobsters... not the spiritual leaders of the community. Shame on them.

[Giancarlo]

Are you suggesting they just stopped reporting cases? That's not a great argument. What evidence is for them suddenly stop reporting cases in 1990 and not in 1980?



There's been about 5000 victims. The Church has already paid out 500 million, about 100k to each victim. That's a pretty substantial chunk of money.

Yeah because money makes it better. Doesn't it? There are still hundreds of cases happening to this day.

Church should have paid something more like 5 billion to even bring some justice back. $100k to each victim? For what? They have to endure a lifetime of pain.

And you're telling them they cannot ever stop being Catholic. Seriously you're a condescending *******.

[Giancarlo]

Didn't say that... I'm just pointing out that you statement "about 100k to each victim. That's a pretty substantial chunk of money" made it sound like you think that evens the scales...



Yeah... but the leaders of the church KNEW they were guilty, and did nothing except provide them with more opportunities to rape even more children while strong arming the victims into silence, and doing nothing for them. I would expect your "innocent until proven guilty" comment if you were defending mobsters... not the spiritual leaders of the community. Shame on them.

Bishops have gone down for covering it up too. THose who cover up the crimes are just as guilty as those commit them.

And the Church has been proven in a Court of Law of being guilty of engaging in massive coverups.

There is a reason I left the church and Catholicism for good. Never again. I cannot be part of something that is so insidious and corrupt.