So how long will Ben last this time?

[Bereta_Eder]

they chopped them up like lampchops.

I'm not saying that christians or jews had it sooo much better under muslims. There were many wrongs and many many regressive things when western europe was finally getting out of the dark ages (which led to the revolution that burried the ottoman empire) - I'm just saying that they were respected because the koran said they should be

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[Proteus_MST]

I could be wrong, but I believe that Christians were pretty tolerant of Jews until the Muslim invasions. Invading other lands is not respecting other religions. That's bull**** you only here from Muslims and liberals.

The jews in european countries were actually pretty oppressed ...
they were limited to certaion districts in the cities and also weren´t allowed to take most jobs.
Which actually is the reason why so many jews became great geld lenders / bankers ... as thi9s was one of the few jobs they were allowed to do (and a job the christians actually couldn´t do, because they were disallowed from doing so by the rules of the catholic church)

Their situation worsened however during the crusades, as many of the crusaders formed mobs in europe and, as their first atrocities, even before leaving christian europe, targeted the jewish districts in christian european cities

[Kidlicious]

I´d call the reconquista of the iberian peninsula "retaking Christian lands".
The crusades against the Levant (and subsequent formation of the crusader states) however I cannot put under this label.
The levant and the northern african lands had only been for a relatively short time under the control of the christianized roman empire ... most of the time (after the pagan roman empire broke down) those lands were under the control of non christian rulers (like the Sassanids) ... therefore the christians had not more rights on these lands than the muslims had

Considering that Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria are all very important to Christians and the Muslim rulers weren't completely removed on the Iberian Peninsula I find it unreasonable to blame the Christians for conquering Muslims lands. If the Muslim rulers were tolerant of Christians I could see your point, but they were not. Taxing people because of their religion is not tolerance.

[Kidlicious]

they chopped them up like lampchops.

I'm not saying that christians or jews had it sooo much better under muslims. There were many wrongs and many many regressive things when western europe was finally getting out of the dark ages (which led to the revolution that burried the ottoman empire) - I'm just saying that they were respected because the koran said they should be

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The koran says to make war against them and enslave them.

[Bereta_Eder]

Actually taxing them was the very thing that saved them from going to wars (except for those that wanted to do that and converted)
The koran forbids "unbelievers" to fight.

So the drafts of the ottoman empire concerned only muslims. Christians payed taxes and avoided going all together

(and many times managed not to pay a single dime in taxes or they chased the sultan's army away or simply moved all their livehoods to the mountains)

[Bereta_Eder]

The koran says to make war against them and enslave them.

Don't know about that. I'm saying what the koran says about "unbelievers" who lived under muslim rule

[Bereta_Eder]

You also don't know that during the early stages of the ottoman empire the (still in dark ages western europe) thought of it as a supreme way of governing. There was palpable admiration.
It became " the ill man of europe" after it started to decay (1600~).

The real violent things started when christian nation states adopted the western idea of nationality (and the turks did too subsequently)

[Kidlicious]

Actually taxing them was the very thing that saved them from going to wars (except for those that wanted to do that and converted)
The koran forbids "unbelievers" to fight.

So the drafts of the ottoman empire concerned only muslims. Christians payed taxes and avoided going all together

(and many times managed not to pay a single dime in taxes or they chased the sultan's army away or simply moved all their livehoods to the mountains)

So instead of killing other Christians they only had to pay the tax. The truth is most people converted. Stop justifying that.

[Kidlicious]

You also don't know that during the early stages of the ottoman empire the (still in dark ages western europe) thought of it as a supreme way of governing. There was palpable admiration.
It became " the ill man of europe" after it started to decay (1600~).

The real violent things started when christian nation states adopted the western idea of nationality (and the turks did too subsequently)

Of course, it's likely a wet dream of yours to live in such a society.

[Bereta_Eder]

Some converted. There were perks if you did that.
Most (evidendly) did not.
It wasn't as if you couldn't work for the ottoman empire.
Virtually all diplomats of the High Gate were christian greeks for example (turks didn't have a nack for foreign languages)


In the end, it was a mixture of a social need for progression and commerical freedom that did apart the ottoman empire
(The drive was indeed based on "unifying" aspects, such as religion, language and (with the kind "help" of the french) nationality in the framework of the modern nation state)

[Bereta_Eder]

Of course, it's likely a wet dream of yours to live in such a society.

It's not but I find your "muslims" are evil monsters hilarious

One (of the many) deal breakers for example would be the "muslim is always right compared to a christian" in a court of law

[Elok]

Please note that these are gross generalizations. Norman Sicily, while short-lived, was Christian (at least, as Christian as the Spanish Umayyads were Muslim) and quite tolerant. I really don't have much information about Byzantium, since it seems almost no Western authors are interested in it, but not long ago I was startled to read an en passant reference to a mosque in Constantinople a few centuries before its fall to the Turks. Likewise many of the Crusader States had fairly congenial relations with the local Muslims (for manpower shortage reasons as much as anything else).

By contrast, the Almoravids, Almohads, Tamerlane, and Baibars the Mamluk butcher were just as Muslim as the Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, etc. In general, it seems the people along the frontier between the two were perforce the most inclined to be flexible about such things, until things ossified into terminal holy war mode. Even after that, it was far from uncommon for Christians to ally with Muslims against other Christians, or vice versa.

[Kidlicious]

Some converted. There were perks if you did that.
Most (evidendly) did not.
It wasn't as if you couldn't work for the ottoman empire.
Virtually all diplomats of the High Gate were christian greeks for example (turks didn't have a nack for foreign languages)


In the end, it was a mixture of a social need for progression and commerical freedom that did apart the ottoman empire
(The drive was indeed based on "unifying" aspects, such as religion, language and (with the kind "help" of the french) nationality in the framework of the modern nation state)

Boys captured in war were circumcised and forced to convert. Girls were made into sex slaves. They were just about as bad as ISIS.

[Bereta_Eder]

A good example of such an alliance was the Moria (another name of the Peloponese).

It had fallen to the hands of the catholics (don't remember which nation, most probably the french). They started a forced conversion (convert or die).
The result was that the local christian greek population perfectly allied with the sultan's army and drove them away
It wasn't really common though (probably because it was an isolated incident)

x-post

[Bereta_Eder]

Boys captured in war were circumcised and forced to convert. Girls were made into sex slaves. They were just about as bad as ISIS.

Actually christianity had its uses.

A muslim woman married to another muslim, couldn't divorce.... Unless she converted to another religion. Then her husband was obliged to leave her.

Has happened