So how long will Ben last this time?

[Ming]

You never have time for something when you are wrong

[Kidlicious]

You never have time for something when you are wrong

No. Because it doesn't get more ridiculous than claiming that a people who we the aggressors for 400 years are the victims. Islam is a history of persecuting other peoples from day one. The religion probably didn't even start until they had already conquered Jerusalem. It's a religion started by bloodthirsty murderers..

[rah]

There's a big difference claiming that they are the victims than saying that both side contributed to the prolonged hostilities.
Not everything is black and white.
Not every Muslim is a war hunger zealot. Most are peaceful.
Not every Christian is all flowers and hugs.

[Kidlicious]

There's a big difference claiming that they are the victims than saying that both side contributed to the prolonged hostilities.
Not everything is black and white.
Not every Muslim is a war hunger zealot. Most are peaceful.
Not every Christian is all flowers and hugs.

This is what you don't understand. Their jihad has nothing to do with Crusades or anything else they use for propaganda. They started by forcing others to join their religion or pay taxes, by the sword, not because of Crusades.

[giblets]

There were two big incursions of "mooslims" to europe.

One was the moors in the iberian peninsula. (which btw after the reconquista, the "christians" had so much spare soldiers wreaking havoc in their own lands that they sent them to the new world to pillage and burn there)

the other were the ottomans. while the byzantine empire was in a long process of decomposition long before, the crusades gave it the final hit and opened up wide the way for the "mooslims" to advance to vienna.

Also under the ottoman empire the farmers, notoriously were better off (at least financially, the taxes were low because the ottomans couldn't enforce their dominion in plenty of places - unlike the nation states that ensued. but still struggle )

The Balkans aren't quite half of Europe.

[Bereta_Eder]

I don't know.
Kind of looks like half of europe

https://www.google.gr/search?q=ottoman+empire+largest+territory&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQiOG73qfKAhXD1iwKHTWJCFUQsAQIPA&biw=1440&bih=789#imgrc=1r_dMx3if8JorM%3A

Certaintly is more than that if you include the iberian peninsula

[rah]

This is what you don't understand. Their jihad has nothing to do with Crusades or anything else they use for propaganda. They started by forcing others to join their religion or pay taxes, by the sword, not because of Crusades.

So what. Most religions were created to control the peons or just to have control. It's what they evolve into that's important. I'll agree that some of the evolution is not good, but not all muslims are like that. And I refuse to condemn a millions of peaceful muslims because of a subset. Just like I refuse to condemn millions of christians because of a subset.

[Proteus_MST]

This is what you don't understand. Their jihad has nothing to do with Crusades or anything else they use for propaganda. They started by forcing others to join their religion or pay taxes, by the sword, not because of Crusades.

Noone claims that they forced to people to convert because of the crusades.

What I wanted to say is that christians weren´t better than muslims with regards to conquest ... and in contrast to muslims, christians often didn´t just demand additional taxes from infidels they conquered, but rather gave them only the choice to convert, or be put to the sword (just remember the colonization of america ... but also the christianization of europe often was done via the sword (for example the northern crusades))

[Kidlicious]

So what. Most religions were created to control the peons or just to have control. It's what they evolve into that's important. I'll agree that some of the evolution is not good, but not all muslims are like that. And I refuse to condemn a millions of peaceful muslims because of a subset. Just like I refuse to condemn millions of christians because of a subset.

So much wrong with that. Probably the biggest thing is that Islam wasn't just created to oppress the peons. It was created to get them to kill unbelievers.

[Bereta_Eder]

The muslims were more religion free than medieval europe because the koran told them to respect all religions that were in the koran (that included christians and jews but not really anyone else, so the rest were a bit screwed)

[rah]

It was created to get them to kill unbelievers.

Not every muslim scholar believes that. And Christianity has it's fair share of blood on it's hands also.

[Kidlicious]

Noone claims that they forced to people to convert because of the crusades.

What I wanted to say is that christians weren´t better than muslims with regards to conquest ... and in contrast to muslims, christians often didn´t just demand additional taxes from infidels they conquered, but rather gave them only the choice to convert, or be put to the sword (just remember the colonization of america ... but also the christianization of europe often was done via the sword (for example the northern crusades))

But retaking Christian lands from invaders who are oppressing Christians? That's not conquering people.

Yes, Christians have don't horrible things for money and racism though.

[Kidlicious]

Not every muslim scholar believes that.

[Kidlicious]

The muslims were more religion free than medieval europe because the koran told them to respect all religions that were in the koran (that included christians and jews but not really anyone else, so the rest were a bit screwed)

I could be wrong, but I believe that Christians were pretty tolerant of Jews until the Muslim invasions. Invading other lands is not respecting other religions. That's bull**** you only here from Muslims and liberals.

[Proteus_MST]

But retaking Christian lands from invaders who are oppressing Christians? That's not conquering people.
...

I´d call the reconquista of the iberian peninsula "retaking Christian lands".
The crusades against the Levant (and subsequent formation of the crusader states) however I cannot put under this label.
The levant and the northern african lands had only been for a relatively short time under the control of the christianized roman empire ... most of the time (after the pagan roman empire broke down) those lands were under the control of non christian rulers (like the Sassanids) ... therefore the christians had not more rights on these lands than the muslims had