So how long will Ben last this time?

[Berzerker]

Dead idols, living God.

the lamb and the fish are not dead idols, they are the astrological signs Jesus identified with

[Kidlicious]

the lamb and the fish are not dead idols, they are the astrological signs Jesus identified with

[Proteus_MST]

Funny enough that isn´t even totally incorrect ...
there is a system of medieval constellations, made during carolingian times,
which interpreted the graeco roman constellations according to the christian religion and has constellations like the Lamb Christi (which can be identified by the halo around its head)
http://members.westnet.com.au/gary-david-thompson/page11-27.html

[Kidlicious]

Funny enough that isn´t even totally incorrect ...
there is a system of medieval constellations, made during carolingian times,
which interpreted the graeco roman constellations according to the christian religion and has constellations like the Lamb Christi (which can be identified by the halo around its head)
http://members.westnet.com.au/gary-david-thompson/page11-27.html

I know. There's all kinds of beliefs that have branched off of Christianity. I just didn't know Berz believed in any of them.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's actually a really interesting post. I have a question - the southern cross is visible from the middle east at the right time of the year. Did the ancients have a name for the Southern Cross?

[Dauphin]

That's actually a really interesting post. I have a question - the southern cross is visible from the middle east at the right time of the year. Did the ancients have a name for the Southern Cross?

Go back a few thousand years and it was visible to most of Europe.

[Ben Kenobi]

Go back a few thousand years and it was visible to most of Europe.

Well, southern Europe anyways.

I did some digging and apparently they were included in the Algamest, as a part of Centaurus, and not a separate constellation.

The other interesting thing I uncovered is that Achernar was the only first magnitude star that was unknown to the Greeks due to the precession of the equinoxes. The first publication it was included in was Bayers Uranometria, and how it got there is an interesting story in itself.

[Dauphin]

Well, southern Europe anyways.

At its northernmost declination it was/will be visible up to almost the 60th parallel.

[Ben Kenobi]

At its northernmost declination it was/will be visible up to almost the 60th parallel.

Ok, if I've understood correctly, Canopus was at it's northernmost declination a couple of centuries ago, and would be the star with the highest average southern declination.

[Dauphin]

Canopus isn't part of the Southern Cross constellation.

[Ben Kenobi]

Canopus isn't part of the Southern Cross constellation.

Yes, but it is the closest first magnitude star to the southern ecliptic pole. Achernar is next closest. The cross, along with Alpha and Beta Centauri are the next group.

[Dauphin]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make now.

Perhaps I can wiki this for you:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crux

Crux is easily visible from the southern hemisphere at practically any time of year. It is also visible near the horizon from tropical latitudes of the northern hemisphere for a few hours every night during the northern winter and spring. For instance, it is visible from Cancun or any other place at latitude 25° N or less at around 10 pm at the end of April.[15][16] There are 5 main stars. Due to precession, Crux will move closer to the South Pole in the next millennia, up to 67 degrees south declination for the middle of the constellation. But in AD 18000 or BC 8000 Crux will be/was less than 30 degrees south declination making it visible in Northern Europe. Even in AD 14000 it will be visible for most parts of Europe and the whole United States.

[Dinner]

I honestly thought you had to be in the southern hemisphere to see the southern cross.

[Ben Kenobi]

No, you don't. You can see it from Florida.

This is actually pertinent to the discussion.

Declination = degrees of latitude on the celestial sphere.

Right Ascension = degrees of longitude on the celestial sphere.

If you are at 45 degrees north Latitude, you can see as far south as -45 degrees of declination.

The cross is -60, so you'd have to travel 15 degrees south in order to see it at the right time of the year. That would be 30 degrees north latitude.

The other problem is light extinction - and you'd need a clear southern horizon, say the ocean.

This is why Key west is ideal. Clear southern horizon, and pretty far south.

What Dauphin and I were talking about is precession. Over about 25k years, the celestial north pole will revolve around a point called the ecliptic pole. This will change the position of the stars on the southern horizon, and change their declination. This isn't relevant during the course of a lifetime, but over thousands of years, it makes a significant change.

This is why Dauphin is saying that it was visible as far north as 60 degrees at it's maximum declination.

[Egbert]

Community service announcement.

I would like to remind everyone that Ben is still here.

Ben