So how long will Ben last this time?

[DinoDoc]

Natural born simply means that no one delivered via c-section can be elected President.

[Ben Kenobi]

* There is an exception in the law — the person must be "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States. This would exempt the child of a diplomat, for example, from this provision.

Uh. No. That's wrong. Diplomats are considered, like embassies, to be an exception.

[Aeson]

Obama's mom had an epidural. That's not natural

[Ben Kenobi]

Berz, you're gonna have to source that. The actual US code doesn't say what your source is claiming it does.

[Ben Kenobi]

He got his citizenship due to having an American mother.

Yep, but he's a natural born Canadian citizen, same as me. Natural Canadian citizen, Naturalized American and Cuban citizen.

[Aeson]

And that's my point, Aeson.

No. It is the refutation of your moronic point:

"It makes no sense to have this clause unless one interprets natural born citizen = born on American soil."

The blindingly obvious fact is that you are wrong. It does make sense, and in fact is required! Such a clause is necessary if you interpret "natural born citizen" as not needing to be born on American soil.

If you could become a natural born citizen through the naturalization process, then this clause would not be needed.

It would, if (as it does) having citizenship by birth requires having US citizen parent(s). There were no US citizens to be parents for anyone old enough to hold office either.

[Aeson]

Ben. You are simply wrong. Here is the law:

http://www.uscis.gov/iframe/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-9696.html

INA: ACT 301 - NATIONALS AND CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES AT BIRTH


Sec. 301. [8 U.S.C. 1401] The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

(b) a person born in the United States to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe: Provided, That the granting of citizenship under this subsection shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of such person to tribal or other property;

(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;

(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;

(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;

(f) a person of unknown parentage found in the United States while under the age of five years, until shown, prior to his attaining the age of twenty-one years, not to have been born in the United States;

(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 1 of the International Organizations Immunities Act (59 Stat. 669; 22 U.S.C. 288) by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person (A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or (B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 1 of the International Organizations Immunities Act, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; and

(h) a person born before noon (Eastern Standard Time) May 24, 1934, outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States of an alien father and a mother who is a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, had resided in the United States.

No naturalization required. The child can be a US citizen by birth if meeting any of those requirements.

[Egbert]

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html

Berzerker posted a link to the section of the constitution of the United States which defines citizens and natural born citizens.

That constitution makes it clear that a person, who is born outside the United States, can indeed be a natural born citizen.

PS Berzerker should apologise for introducing facts to an OT debate. Facts are not allowed.

[Egbert]

Good grief. Now Aeson is also quoting the applicable laws of the USA. Where will this end?

[Aeson]

Don't worry Braindead, Ben will come up with enough bald-faced assertions and strawmen to cover for those lapses and many more...

[Egbert]

I am very worried.

I see my thread on epistemology has fallen on deaf ideas.

[Ben Kenobi]

No. It is the refutation of your moronic point

Not at all. As you stated, "the only natural born citizens at that point would be children". And why? because you had to be born in the territory of the United States to be considered to be natural born citizens.

If it were possible to become a natural born citizen through the process of naturalization, this clause would be wholly unnecessary. The reason that this clause was inserted is to grandfather those born in other countries prior to the formation of the United States.

This is simple logic.

It would, if (as it does) having citizenship by birth requires having US citizen parent(s). There were no US citizens to be parents for anyone old enough to hold office either.

Which the constitution does not say. Can you see anywhere where this is stated, within the constitution of the United States? No.

[Ben Kenobi]

Berz, I checked your link, it does not source any of the statements.

link to the section of the constitution of the United States which defines citizens and natural born citizens.

Except, all it does is make a 'bald faced assertion' without actually citing the law, and providing a link to the actual law involved.

[Dauphin]

This is simpleton logic.

Which the constitution does not say. Can you see anywhere where this is stated, within the constitution of the United States? No.

Back at yer!

[Ben Kenobi]

Aeson, your link doesn't actually state, "naturally born citizen". No one is questioning that all of those categories are those who would be considered citizens of the united states at birth. However, Natural Born citizenship is different. By definition you cannot hold two of these, and the reason it was in the constitution is to ensure that those elected to the highest office of the land did not have foreign connections. At the time, it was fairly common for people to be governed by those who were not born in the country, particularly in the Spain (by a King in the Low countries and in Austria), and in Russia (by a German). The Americans did not want foreign domination of their government and wanted to ensure that their chief executive was an American.

By definition, Cruz is a natural born Canadian citizen. Same as me.