NATO member shoots down Russian jet

[PLATO]

ok, let it be 55 years. big difference, really.
Now tell me, how many seconds it takes for U2 to fly to Ural mountains from Soviet border?

And the second question is - did Soviets have the same right to "defend its airspace" just like the way those f*ckers did (to kill parachuting pilot from the ground)?

In the U-2 incident, Russia did have the right to defend its airspace and shoot down the U-2. No one has the right to shoot a parachuting pilot.

There...feel better now?

As an American, it probably would have damaged my national pride and pissed me off, but as a person who recognizes the rule of international law, I would also recognize that Russia was well within its rights to shoot down the U-2.

International law is something that Russia apparently doesn't fully understand however. If you did, you would not be in Crimea or Easter Ukraine. Just sayin.

[PLATO]

A Russian claiming they never shot down planes [emoji38]

Russia is second place to ISIS when it comes to killing people on planes.

Russia is a terrorist nation

It is frightening the way that Russian media is so obviously lying nearly all the time as they continue to be nothing but the mouthpiece of an increasingly dictatorial government.

It is truly sad how much that government is resembling things that a terrorist state would do.

Sava, sadly I think you may be on to something....

[PLATO]

The words of President Erdogan of Turkey ring hollow.

When Syria shot down a Turkish jet, in Syrian airspace in 2012, Erdogan fulminated that a minor incursion was not a pretext for an attack. Now, in 2015, Erdogan claims he personally ordered an attack on a Russian fighter during a minor incursion through Turkish airspace. An incursion that lasted 17 seconds and apparently posed no threat to Turkey. Incidentally, it seems Australian and US warplanes sometimes also fly through that same area of Turkish airspace.

The two incidents are not comparable. In fact, Turkey had acted with great restraint by previously having complained to Russia through both military and diplomatic channels about numerous "harmless" incursions into Turkish Airspace. The fact that the latest incursion was 17 seconds is not relevant to the greater point. Had this been a one off then Turkey would have been wrong. It was not however. It was part of a systematic series of violations of Turkish Airspace by Russia after they had been warned repeatedly over previous incidents. Even in this incident the Pilot was warned repeatedly not to enter Turkish airspace and ignored the warnings. Not exactly sure how that "rings hollow" on the Turkish side.

With respect to U.S. and Australian planes overflying Turkish airspace...you are kidding right? Most of those missions are being run out of Turkish Airbases and they have permission from Turkey. Anyone so boldly commenting on the situation should know that.

It seems the primary Russian goals in Syria are to maintain stability in Syria with the government of Assad remaining in power. The primary goal of Turkey is to prevent the emergence of an independent Kurdistan, whether those Kurds be in Syria, Iraq, Iran or Russia. It appears the Turks have been taking measures to frustrate the Kurds during the fighting in Syria.

Not sure what your point is here in relation to the context of Turkey defending its airspace. This looks like some random post of facts that are only there to make you look like you understand the situation?

It is very hard to escape the conclusion the Turks are telling lies. It is hard to escape the conclusion they were waiting for a pretext to down a Russian jet to frustrate Russian efforts in Syria. The Russian goals in Syria are by no means aligned with Turkish goals.

How is this? What facts are you using? Nothing you have posted lead to this conclusion. If you have a reason, then say it. If you don't then don't call it a conclusion...call it what it is.

It is not clear exactly what the Turks are up to in shooting down this Russian jet.

It is very clear. Russia violated Turkish airspace after repeated warnings not to. Russia lost a plane for its arrogance. What is not clear?

I thus conclude the Turks were wrong to open fire. I conclude the Russians were the innocent party in this particular incident.

Again...conclusions without any supporting facts. A more honest approach would to just say, "I want to post that I think Russia is right and Turkey is wrong, even though I don't have any facts to back it up."

[Dinner]

There seems to be no doubt that a Russian warplane was fired on in Turkish airspace after warnings were issued. A deeper question to ask is "why did Turkey shoot down that plane"? It was undoubtedly a minor infraction of Turkish airspace which various commentators and diplomats have opined ought to have been met with an escort out of Turkish airspace, not missiles.

A key objective for turkey is containment of the Kurdish militia, who happen to be in sympathy with Kurdish rebels in Turkey. It seems Turkey's primary target in Syria is not IS but the Kurdish militia who are making gains and taking territory. Turkey has bombed the Kurdish militia at least twice. The Kurdish militia happen to enjoy the support of the United States.

Turkey has acted in support of the Turkmen population along her border. Russia has bombed Turkmen rebels, and supply convoys passing between the Turkmen region and Turkey.

Turkey desires the removal of Assad. Russia desires maintaining Assad in power.

Russia and Turkey are thus at loggerheads over Syria.

Russia and Turkey both have some interests in common with the United States and some points of difference.

The why is pretty simple for anyone who has ever met a Turk. They are a nation who is afraid people look down on them or feel they are inferior due to history and this makes them esoecially prickly about their sovereignty as well as demanding respect. The Turks have had a number of Russia incursions into their airspace (partially so the Russians could see what they would do and partially to photograph where the Turks are delivering supplies to the moderate opposition) and the Turks first asked them to stop politely, then demanded they stop, then shot down a plane when they did not stop.

The other issue is Russia keeps bombing the moderate opposition instead of ISIS because the moderates are a greater threat to Asad. Turkey is especially protective of ethnic Turkmen minorities in the former Ottoman Empire because they see them as their ethnic brothers and they have repeatedly warned Russia to stop bombing civilians in Turkmen villages. The plane that got shot down was bombing such a Turkman village which does contain civilians but also is used by Turkey to supply weapons to the moderates.

[My Wife Hates CIV]

Russia should have told Turkey that they would be flying and pretty near their border. IF we do go over the border we'll be out in less than a minute. Russian has been flying crazy now for a while, buzzing ships, buzzing civilian flights, shooting down civilian flights. i mean, what did they think was going happen? putin gets a fat lip and throws a 2 year old fit. I guess the only question really is did the NATO jets sucker punch the russians in their f111 knockoff. That might be messed up. But if they were warned... oh well. It aint the boy scouts over there.

[Dinner]

One of the big disagreements between the US and Turkey has been that Turkey keeps bombing mostly Kurds instead of ISIS, thst the US only bombs ISIS and not Assad, while Russia hardly bombs ISIS and instead mostly bombs the moderates because their goal is to prop up the evil dictator who does what Moscow tells them to do. Moscow doesn't want there to be a creditable alternative to Assad thus they mostly attack the moderates.

Only people like Serb are dumb enough to believe Putin has actually spent much time attacking ISIS.

[DinoDoc]

If Turkey was interested in fighting ISIS, it would have opened it's airspace for Russian planes or even better - provided its airfields for Russian planes.

Neither country is actually interested in fighting ISIS. Your country is bombing everyone but them and the Turks are mainly interested in keeping the Kurds in check and supporting the Turkmen minority in Syria. The Russian plane that had been shot down had been attacking the Turkmen.

[Ellestar]

Neither country is actually interested in fighting ISIS. Your country is bombing everyone but them and the Turks are mainly interested in keeping the Kurds in check and supporting the Turkmen minority in Syria. The Russian plane that had been shot down had been attacking the Turkmen.

It's kinda obvious that if the government of Syria is our very long-term ally, our most important goal is to support our ally. Most of the Syrian army is locked fighting non-ISIS rebels, so we're helping where it counts. We're there to help our ally Syria win, not to help Syria suicide on ISIS.

[Proteus_MST]

It's kinda obvious that if the government of Syria is our very long-term ally, our most important goal is to support our ally. Most of the Syrian army is locked fighting non-ISIS rebels, so we're helping where it counts. We're there to help our ally Syria win, not to help Syria suicide on ISIS.

Seems like you should tell Serb about it.
Obviously he has missed the memo and still believes you are fighting ISIS there

[Sava]

Russia is trying to finish what it started in Ukraine:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

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[Sava]

And if any Russian ****face wants to talk about who is really murdering Ukraine, let's do it.

For real

In an empty room with one baseball bat on the floor

Bring it



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[Sava]

Because cleaning up sporting goods is important

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[OneFootInTheGrave]

Belgian tiebreaker

On the map provided by Turkish officials, it can be seen that the plane crashed eight kilometers from the place it was hit. The jet traveled those eight kilometers from the time it was hit until the time it crashed. A simple division gives an initial speed of 980 km/h, a perfectly acceptable speed for an aircraft travling at that altitude. So far, so good.

Then, the physicists take that speed and compare it to the distance the jets traveled in Turkish airspace according to the Turkish map, around 2 kilometers. When flying at a speed of 980 km/h, an object would cover that distance in seven seconds, instead of the 17 seconds according to Turkish reports. To cross that distance in 17 seconds, the plane should have been traveling at a meager 420 km/h. The video shows this simply could not be true, if the crash site is accurate. Physics 1, Turkey 0.

The Turkish airforce says it warned the fighter jets ten times in five minutes. In five minutes, an aeroplane traveling at 980 km/h would cross a distance of about 80 kilometers. From these facts, the professors conclude: “How could the Turkish airforce predict that the Russian jets were about to enter Turkish airspace? Military jets are very agile, and in theory the Russian jets could have turned at the last moment to avoid Turkish airspace. The warnings issued to the Russian pilots were mere speculation at the moment they were made.”

According to those facts, the warnings couldn’t possibly have been issued in the time the jets were in Turkish territory. Unless Turkish air controllers can speak impossibly fast, issuing ten warnings in seven seconds seems kinda improbable. Physics 2, Turkey 0.

In issues like these, there’s never one party to blame. This is international geopolitics, a discipline in which the truth is as malleable as Play-Doh.

The map that was spread by Russian officials. Image via Ku Leuven Blogt

On the Russian map, it can be seen that the plane makes a ninety degree turn after it was hit, which is quite impossible. According to the physicists, the only way this could be achieved is if the momentum of the incoming rocket was so much larger than the momentum of the jet that the latter would be negligible. “A change of course of 90 degrees can only be achieved with an object that’s many times heavier or faster than the jet,” the physicists write. From this we can conclude that the jets were not actively trying to avoid Turkish territory, which is the Russian side of the story. Physics 3, Turkey 0, Russia 0.

[Serb]

Well, I for my part don´t try to defend Erdogan on this one ...
Erdogan and Putin are 2 people of the same kind ... wannabe autocrats with a really big Ego.
And, as someone already said, their interests with regards to Assad are diamterically opposite ...
Erdogan wants to see him fall ... and Putin wants to support him and therefore a large part of his bombing campaign actually is against moderate rebel groups and not ISIS.
Therefore it is no surprise to me that a minor infraction of turkish airspace was used as a pretext for shooting it down.

Blah-blah-blah.
1) The Russian plane was in Syrian airspace.
2) The Turkish Fighters have prepared an ambush and entered the Syrian airspace to shot it down.


3) Still, the point is, even if Russian plane was in Turkish airspace for few seconds - it's a f*cking VIOLATION of all possible international regulations wrt such situations. There are strict rules how to deal with such incursions. And Turkey of anyone SHOULD know that, since Turkish planes have violated Greek airspace over TWO THOUSAND times in 2014 alone. YES, TWO, F*CKING THOUSAND TIMES. In one year. No plane was shot down.

Now, I guess, we will help our Orthodox brothers to maintain their sovereignty.

[QUOTE=Proteus_MST;6443566As for the pilot who was killed from the ground ... well, it is my understanding that it were rebels who shot him ... and not turkish troops
[/QUOTE]
The ones whom you call "moderates", right?
The Geneva convention is very strict on on that exact situation - the ones who do that are military criminals. Period.

[dannubis]

I see a lot of crying from the same people who support the war in eastern Ukraine...