US is getting fatter again

[Lorizael]

If an adult gets fat it's almost always a choice.

And why are choices made?

Preferences

And why do people have the preferences they do?

Culture... Also, American culture seems to have decided that being fat isn't a choice...

The cognitive dissonance here is truly stunning.

[C0ckney]

A causal process leads to a person being poor.
A causal process leads to a person being obese.

The analogy is a good one.

And the point of the analogy is of course, rather than blame the poor person or the obese person, the factors that result in those outcomes should be addressed. (Especially important since guilt/shame is often a contributing factor to obesity.)

that's incredibly weak.

a causal process leads to someone spilling coffee down their shirt.
a casual process leads to genocide.

therefore an analogy between coffee being spilt and the rwandan genocide is good.

now if you'll just address this:

a fat person can become thin just by making better choices; a poor person cannot become rich in the same way because the economic logic that makes them poor is outside of their control.

[giblets]

If guilt caused obesity, Jews and Catholics would be the fattest

[Aeson]

Also, American culture seems to have decided that being fat isn't a choice and you're a horrible person if you acknowledge that someone is a fatass

This wasn't true through most of the creation of the obesity epidemic. As for referring to people as "a fatass", it's at best counter-productive if your goal is to address obesity in a way that will help people avoid becoming obese, and more likely simply being an *******. While you like to rail against "Fat Studies" and the like, they are a relatively recent, small niche that hasn't had much affect on society as a whole.

[Lorizael]

If guilt caused obesity, Jews and Catholics would be the fattest

If you don't think low self-worth leads to poor choices, you simply have no idea how psychology works.

[giblets]

If you don't think low self-worth leads to poor choices, you simply have no idea how psychology works.

I'm sure it does, but if getting comments on your weight significantly affects your sense of self-worth, maybe you need to see a therapist

[Lorizael]

We all regularly see professionals for our physical health. I have no idea why we don't all regularly see professionals for our mental health as well.

[giblets]

Chef loses 291lbs. after friend texts him ‘Fat ****’ for 6 weeks (7 Photos & Video)

It worked for this guy

[giblets]

We all regularly see professionals for our physical health. I have no idea why we don't all regularly see professionals for our mental health as well.

Mental illness is massively stigmatized.

[Aeson]

a causal process leads to someone spilling coffee down their shirt.
a casual process leads to genocide.

Those are both true.

therefore an analogy between coffee being spilt and the rwandan genocide is good.

I'm having difficulty thinking of a topic where it would be a useful analogy. Certainly the harm caused is vastly different in the two situations, so someone making such an analogy is likely trying to distract from the topic with hyperbole, more than actually address the causal process involved.

The topic here is obesity, which is something that negatively affects a large portion of population with both individual and societal harm from it. It is similar to poverty in that way, as both individual and societal harm comes from that as well. You are well-known for accepting the causal nature of poverty, so it's an obvious analogy to make when you are discounting the causal nature of obesity.

It is a fair point to say to someone who is mocking obese people while defending poor people (or vice versa) that both things are happening because of a causal process.

a fat person can become thin just by making better choices; a poor person cannot become rich in the same way because the economic logic that makes them poor is outside of their control.

You are simply ignoring the causal nature of one to pretend it's in their control, while accepting the causal nature of the other to say it's not in their control. Both are the result of the causal process. You can't simply tell people "make better choices", because everyone is already, and always will be, making the choices they can. If you want to fix something, you need to address the underlying causes in a way that will actually change them.

[Lorizael]

Mental illness is massively stigmatized.

I did actually know why.

You can't simply tell people "make better choices", because everyone is already, and always will be, making the choices they can.

Not necessarily! It's possible that the sound "make better choices" will cause the recipient of that sound to, in fact, make better choices. It's just that there's very little evidence it ever does. But, you know, people are going to keep making that sound as long as they receive some input that causes them to!

[C0ckney]

my goodness. perhaps i was too subtle. let me try again. everything is caused by a causal process of some kind; that does not mean that you make an analogy out of any two things and call it good.

an example of a good analogy would be the one gribbler made about smoking. everyone who stops smoking does so through choice. they may find it hard because of habit, addiction, pleasure, peer pressure, etc., but the choice is theirs. in the same way, people can choose what and how much they eat and whether they take exercise. they may find it hard because of diverse issues, but the choice is theirs.

You are simply ignoring the causal nature of one to pretend it's in their control, while accepting the causal nature of the other to say it's not in their control. Both are the result of the causal process. You can't simply tell people "make better choices", because everyone is already, and always will be, making the choices they can. If you want to fix something, you need to address the underlying causes in a way that will actually change them.

is there anything you believe people actually have control over?

this is a bit like saying that i chose to put on a green t-shirt instead of red one this morning because of a causal process and therefore i cannot possibly make the choice to put on a red t-shirt until i address the underlying causes of my preference for green t-shirts.

[C0ckney]

Not necessarily! It's possible that the sound "make better choices" will cause the recipient of that sound to, in fact, make better choices. It's just that there's very little evidence it ever does. But, you know, people are going to keep making that sound as long as they receive some input that causes them to!

it seems to have worked with smoking. far fewer people smoke now than did a generation ago in large part because of messages sent by society to get them to make better choices.

[Lorizael]

Might have had more to do with the fact that the tobacco industry's campaign of misinformation about the health effects of their product was exposed.

[Aeson]

is there anything you believe people actually have control over?

We are all the result of a causal process. Everything happens as it had to. Thus the sig, "tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"

this is a bit like saying that i chose to put on a green t-shirt instead of red one this morning because of a causal process and therefore i cannot possibly put on a red t-shirt until i address the underlying causes of my preference for green t-shirts.

No, it's not like that. The choice between green or red was determined by a causal process, but without knowing a lot more about that process it's impossible to make any future predictions based on it.