Irish Marriage Equality Referendum Draws Near

[Ben Kenobi]

Your unproven assertion is irrelevant to my suggestion that women should be priests to limit abuse.

True, but your suggestion only makes sense in light that Catholic priests abuse at the same rate.

I didn't concede the point, I challenged your assertion's relevance.

One of the presuppositions of this argument is that "priests do not abuse more than the general population."

You are continuing to ignore my suggestion that women should be priests

Quite the opposite. I employed a reduction ad absurdum, in arguing why not eliminate all abuse through killing all the men?

Yes, we know that you're a bigot, you don't need to keep repeating yourself.

Do you believe children have a right to a mother and a father?

Would you support a law that outlawed homosexuality?

You mean a law banning sodomy?

[C0ckney]

Would you consider Judas among the faithful?

do you view all the irish catholics who voted for marriage equality as judases?

what about the hundreds of millions of catholics worldwide who use contraception and/or get divorced?

[Ben Kenobi]

that one iota of credit for agreeing that the Church did a bad job handling it and could have corrected it faster.

Indeed. Which is why I've supporting replacing all the bishops involved and the specific ones that were involved at least in the US are gone. That's the real root of the problem. Individual priests can be removed so far as the oversight is still in place. With the bishops - the oversight can be removed and that's where you get the issues with priests getting shuffled around. The problem is less the Church rules, but that the rules already in place were not enforced.

[Ben Kenobi]

do you view all the irish catholics who voted for marriage equality as judases?

what about the hundreds millions of catholics worldwide who use contraception and/or get divorced?

This may seem flippant, but this is a real question. Do you believe that the faithful constitute those who believe in what the church teaches?

[loinburger]

Quite the opposite. I employed a reduction ad absurdum, in arguing why not eliminate all abuse through killing all the men?

You are really bad at logic. Banning men from the priesthood is in no way analogous to killing all men.

Do you believe children have a right to a mother and a father?

I don't believe that a mother and father are necessarily more or less fit to be parents than a mother and a mother or a father and a father. I also believe that one parent is preferable to zero parents.

You mean a law banning sodomy?

Yes

[C0ckney]

This may seem flippant, but this is a real question. Do you believe that the faithful constitute those who believe in what the church teaches?

i think that all those who identify as catholics and take part, even in a minor way, in the church's activities are the faithful.

now will you answer my questions?

[Ben Kenobi]

You are really bad at logic. Banning men from the priesthood is in no way analogous to killing all men

This assumes the problem is with men in general. Not priests in particular.

I don't believe that a mother and father are necessarily more or less fit to be parents than a mother and a mother or a father and a father. I also believe that one parent is preferable to zero parents.

Well, that's really the core of the dispute then. I believe that a child needs both a mom and a dad - because I also believe that men and women are not interchangeable parts. You just can't swap out a dad for mom number 2.

As for Sodomy, I'm not in support of Scalia's arguments in Lawrence. But, otherwise the man is a prophet in his dissent. I believe that people should be able to have sex with each other without the penalty of the state coming down on them. I support Justice Thomas's opinion in Lawrence.

[grumbler]

Catholic priests are far more likely to have committed sexual abuse against minors than the average male. Don't believe wikipedia. Approximately 4% of US priests were charged with sex offenses against minors in 1950-2002. About one tenth of one percent of Boy Scout adult leaders were accused in that time period. In a 1993 anonymous survey of priests "8.4% reported sexual misconduct with a minor." That's way, way above the level for the typical male.

[Berzerker]

I am not responsible for the abuse of the children in the orphanage. The abusers are responsible for the abuse of the children.

do you support orphanages?

you just dont support collective guilt applied to you for supporting them...

[loinburger]

Well, that's really the core of the dispute then. I believe that a child needs both a mom and a dad - because I also believe that men and women are not interchangeable parts. You just can't swap out a dad for mom number 2.

Great, just say that this is what you believe and stick to that. Doing things like bringing up bull**** statistics about child abuse and then inconsistently applying that standard to other demographics just makes you look like a dishonest idiot.

[Ben Kenobi]

i think that all those who identify as catholics and take part, even in a minor way, in the church's activities are the faithful.

This is what the Church teaches. Yes, Judas was a member of the faithful. We have a lot of work to do in catechesis, and you're also right that it's not just on this one issue, it is connected with divorce and contraception too. This is why I talk about conjugality. That's the thread that runs through all of this.

[Ben Kenobi]

do you support orphanages?

If a home cannot be found? Yes.

you just dont support collective guilt applied to you for supporting them...

I'm not responsible for a child becoming an orphan unless I shot his parents.

[Ben Kenobi]

Great, just say that this is what you believe and stick to that. Bringing up bull**** statistics about child abuse and then inconsistently applying that standard to other demographics just makes you look like a dishonest idiot.

Just because you don't like the stats, doesn't make them bull****.

[Ben Kenobi]

Catholic priests are far more likely to have committed sexual abuse against minors than the average male. Don't believe wikipedia. Approximately 4% of US priests were charged with sex offenses against minors in 1950-2002. About one tenth of one percent of Boy Scout adult leaders were accused in that time period. In a 1993 anonymous survey of priests "8.4% reported sexual misconduct with a minor." That's way, way above the level for the typical male.

You're gonna have to provide a [[citation needed]].

http://www.americancatholic.org/news/clergysexabuse/johnjaycns.asp

Regarding action by civil authorities, the study said that "3 percent of all priests against whom allegations were made were convicted and about 2 percent received prison sentences."

So that's 3 percent of 4 percent of all priests were convicted. So around 1.2 tenths of a percent of all priests were convicted.

The study listed the main characteristics of the sex abuse incidents reported. These included:
-- An overwhelming majority of the victims, 81 percent, were males.

Which confirms what I said:

It said that 68 percent of the allegations were made against priests ordained between 1950 and 1979, while priests ordained after 1979 accounted for 10.7 percent of the allegations.

So 90 percent of the abusers were ordained before 1979.

[loinburger]

Just because you don't like the stats, doesn't make them bull****.

The problem is when you say that you oppose homosexual adoption because of concerns over child abuse, but then you refuse to apply the same standard to African-American adoptions - it's obvious that you don't really believe that abuse statistics should be used to collectively punish entire demographics, and so the argument is dishonest.